I remember years ago when Angel Martino couldn't go to the 1988 olympics? Now, a swimmer name Vencill has been accused of taking steriods who was going to the Pan-American games.Americans always point to the East German system in the 1970's and 1980's and the Chinese in the 1990's. So, do some of you think its more widespread in the US than has been previous thought?
Former Member
met him when he trained with Blue Tide aquatics in 1997. Very nice guy, very good person. Even if he is guilty, "stringing him up" is not an appropriate comment. If we were all defined by our worst actions, then we would all be labed liars, cheaters, and infidels. Should he be suspended? Yes - but does he need to be condemned here?
A thread that always attracts a lot of interest. Does "negative" news always sell better?
On a hopefully more positive note. Do any of you swimming fans think that Michael Phelp will break the 200 free record today?
This is one of the "off events" for his World Championship tune-up meet in Santa Clara.
Check out the action in real-time at:
www.santaclaraswimclub.org/.../index.htm
I agree with Tall Paul's points in this thread. A couple of years ago whilst spending quite a few hours waiting for my events at Baltimore LCNATS I overheard discussions (& participated in some) re efficacy of creatine, ginseng & other stuff both organic & pharmaceutical- most shared the opinion that if it "works", why not try it. I disagree with this point of view & point to the whole concept of "performance-enhancing" being why we eventually ban certain substances. Let's just compete & let training, technique & talent win the day (luck is a wildcard).
I don't think that anyone should be shocked that a swimmer has tried to enhance his performance.
This behavior has been around for years. I recall a certain NCAA champ from UT (not texas) back in the 70's that was SUPER buff. Two months after the championships he was back to looking like a regular slender swimmer. Drugs? It is a good thing that we now test.
And, if you are good enough to be on the drug test hit-list, don't you think that you should study the list of what you can and can't take? After the Rick Demont debacle in 1972, I can't imagine any world class athlete who wouldn't be completely in control of everything going into his/her body.
Originally posted by Phil M.
And, if you are good enough to be on the drug test hit-list, don't you think that you should study the list of what you can and can't take? After the Rick Demont debacle in 1972, I can't imagine any world class athlete who wouldn't be completely in control of everything going into his/her body.
Part of the problem is that the labeling of dietary supplements is unregulated and often inaccurate. The amounts of some ingredients may be wrong or certain ingredients be omitted from the labels entirely. (This seems to be at least part of the excuse offered here.)
But, harsh as it may sound, this isn't an excuse. The unreliability of supplement labels is hardly a secret and athletes should know that. It's the difference between an excusable "mistake" and negligence. An athlete who doesn't anticipate mislabeling of supplements is, at best, negligent and takes the risk of the consequences of ingesting a banned substance.
Ion- I quite understand that ginseng etc are not on the lists-you missed my point: If any one of them could be proven medically to offer an unfair advantage, then they would be banned for that point alone. The IOC doesn't really care if the substances are harmful, after all they haven't banned arsenic (although, you could argue that it would deaden the pain of a 200fly {joke, Ion})
I'm just sick and tired of the ethic of the quick fix to achievement that seems to be attractive to some people.
Originally posted by Peter Cruise
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...efficacy of creatine, ginseng & other stuff both organic & pharmaceutical- most shared the opinion that if it "works", why not try it.
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Let's just compete & let training, technique & talent win the day (luck is a wildcard).
I think there is a distiction between legal and illegal products, as defined on the Olympic list, distinction that Masters can follow:
a) creatine, ginseng, green tea, blue algae, kava, L-Glutamine a H.g.h. secretagogue, omega-3 fatty acids, fishoil, etc., these are not on the Olympic list of banned enhancers;
they are legal dietary supplements, like the vitamin C is;
also, they are like the fat ingested at restaurants, but unlike that fat, they make the good diet of an athlete in training;
b) the Olympic list of banned enhancers, is made of steroids, including steroids that the veterinary give to racing horses (for example Clenbuterol -and a German top runner was banned in the late 1990s for it, according to the newspapers-, Equipoise, 19-Norandrosterone -found in the positive test by Vencill, discussed in this thread-), H.g.h. and E.P.O.;
these products are on the banned list, because they are medically unaccepted for human consumption as of 2003, not because it is unethical in general to take dietary supplements -allowed in a)-;
improvement in swimming performance by use of banned enhancers given to horses, that's further proof of what I claim when I post that swimming is mostly a VO2Max (i.e.: cardiovascular) conditioning sport, as opposed to mindless technique -much in vogue around here- preached by unkept physical slobs;
In the footsteps of a):
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Angel Martino (U.S.), got medals in the 1996 Olympics, with documented use of creatine;
myself, I briefly tried creatine at the end of the summer of 1999, didn't like it since I want my body not to become a stranger to myself, and I discarded it since;
somebody where I train, wanted to come to the 2003 Short Course Nationals -but finally didn't make it because of lack of finances-, was talking about being comfortable in re-starting to take creatine, and I saw the person -focused over a few months- improving in workouts from 2:20 to 2:04 in the 200 freestyle.
In the footsteps of b):
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at the high level of the Olympics and around that level or even at a lower level -I am not sure-, swimmers get caught on steroids when they seek best performances;
the area of steroids, of H.g.h. and E.P.O., is one where I don't know more about than what is being printed in the news.
Gosh, I never advocated that we string anyone up. I simply stated my belief that if caught cheating with illegal drugs in sports competition, that person should be banned for life.
I do not know the details of this incident regarding the person you state in your post Houston, so I do not feel it is fair for me to comment.
I believe with all my heart in redemption. I believe people can commit acts that are wrong and truly redeem themselves in latter life. Having said that, that does not mean they are worthy of sitting in certain positions in life after committing certain crimes. I believe the same holds true in sports competition. You get caught cheating with illegal drugs, your out.
