I just competed (and I use the term loosely) in the 2003 National Senior Games and found it very disappointing to see that Master swimmers have pretty much taken over the awards platform. This event used to be mainly for recreational athletes who either could not or did not want to compete at a higher level. This was our opportunity to have a moment in the spotlight by competing against athletes who were “equal” to our level of skill. Our moment to believe we were the best in our group and to share our victories with our friends.
By coming to this event, you (the Master swimmers) have assured that no one who is a recreational athlete will ever get a medal and you have pushed the minimum standard time so low that many athletes no longer qualify to even come to the National event. In talking with over 85 athletes of various ages, it was generally agreed that within the next few years, this will be “just another Master’s venue”. You already have four National Events EACH YEAR, the SC Yards, SC Meters, LC Meters, and the YMCA Nationals. Why can’t you leave ONE event that takes places every OTHER year for the swimmers who will never be at any of your meets? Out of the 85 swimmers I spoke with, an overwhelming percent said they would probably not go to the event in Pittsburgh, PA since there would probably be more Masters there and no place for them.
I realize that this event is open to all seniors, but I ask you, how would you feel to have your only chance to win a medal taken away by someone who probably has a box full of them? If you look at the times, you will see that that the top three places in nearly all events went to Masters who all hold top 10 times in USMS. So the athletes, who are not Masters, had to settle for ribbons. There were so many disappointed families, friends, and swimmers who had hoped to win a medal and stand on the awards platform and share their shining moment with their families. Instead it was Masters and the majority of them didn’t even bring families. It was “just another meet” for them.
I’m sure I’m going to be made the “bad guy” by writing this, but my mother is 83 years old and watched her medal go to a Master swimmer and my heart broke for her. She may not be here for any future games and she really worked hard to do well, then you guys showed up. Please, leave the recreational National Event for us and be happy with your four events each year.
Former Member
We had considered asking NSGA to consider that if you are a Master swimmer and have a top ten time in the three years preceeding the event, they you could not compete. But we were not sure if some folks would just "sit it out" and wait. But these guys were "Competitors (warriors more exactly)" and I don't think they would stop swimming at Master meets.
You are correct in saying that I do not object to all Master swimmers. My best friend is one and she is average like me. It's the one's who hold top ten times and compete successfully on the National level that should stick with those events and leave the Senior Games to the fitness and rec swimmers.
Track and field has the same problems as swimming and they are losing athletes also. It's very sad to see people giving up.
I'm still too young for Senior olympics but when I turn 50 years old, I wouldn't mind doing it at the state level. Anyway, since I moved from one state to another I trashed most of my childhood ribbons and medals. As for masters meet, I think in my state some masters meets award ribbons and some don't award anything, which means many masters swimmers don't do it for the awards. There's another national level competion called state's games of America. Your state has to have the adult level swimming,mine does its in the Grand Canyon games and if you win a medal at one of these events you can go to the national level meet back east. The times there are not as competitive as master nationals. In our Grand Canyon games, you have a woman get first place in 50 yard breastroke in the 45 to 49 age group at 39 seconds and the second place finished did a 1:01. So, found out if your state is involved with the State games of America in adult swimming. They award medals for the first three places.
Swim2sea,
I am sorry that you had a negative experience with some members of the USMS swimming community. Hopefully from those individuals posting messages here and your personal experiences with your friend that you'll be able to see not all USMS swimmers have the same mentality as those from the NSG (referring to the 'warriors'). To me it seems a bit off track to be biased because someone is a USMS member, has a top ten time or swims with a team or has a coach. From some of my experiences it would be like me complaining about a triathlete who is faster than me because he has a better bike or better running shoes - go with what you got and do your best. I can understand the feeling of being shorted by having these competitors come in and steal your (anyones for that matter) moment in the sun. Maybe that recogntion can come at a different time other than the awards podium (excuse my ignorance on the conduct of the meet if they did this) but maybe they could do something similiar to the Olympics / BIG swim meets where the competitors are marched out and introduced lane by lane as they get ready for their event (of course this would create a longer meet).
I do see a probelm with the exclusion of a swimmer if they have a top ten time. First off do you exclude the swimmer for only those events or for the whole meet if they have a top ten time? What about relays (I have been on relays even a #1 relay - yet I personally have never had an individual top ten time)? Then the last one, what happens if I have a top ten time because I have outlasted most of my competitors ? - say I'm 110 yrs old am I excluded because I am the only competitor so anything I swim is a top ten time. These are some tough questions to answer, which frankly I don't have an easy solution, the fact is in competition there is a winner and a loser (unless of course everyone ties). Happy swimming.
Jeff
Look swim. There are really 3 Medals. They arent gold, silver,or bronze. your momalready has those unseen medals. they are heart brains and phyiscal ability. In allsports those are the only three medals you will ever need. First off your mom has to be some kind of a special women to enter competion. her heart is her couarge to go on when her phyiscal ability is telling her no more. Her brain is givng the smarts to tell her body to keep going . And then and only then will her phyiscal ability will kick in. Yes it is nice to also win medals (extra gravy). But After the contest is over . A very important part will be , the accomplishment you have achieved. when I am at aameet . I have two goals to achive , they are that I finish my heat and that I better my times . If I win any medals, that will only be secondry. But never the less I think your mom is a courages woman and if she contiunes to go on . She will recive her just reward.:) :cool: :)
Margaret, thanks for bringing this issue up, I think there is some good fodder for introspection.
1. There are 3 "national" competitions - each being their own management body....YMCA, NSG and USMS. IMHO - YMCA and USMS overlap 100% and NSG in the 50 and over. At some point, we can join up as one (IMHO - we have the same philosphies - just not the same mgmgt people) or we can add 1 or 2 more to the organizations to the mix..(sarcastic). I am not proposing anything ..just pointing out our collective situation- yes it IS confusing the swimming populace...
"there MUST be a difference, or we wouldn't have 3 different Nat's"?
2. Gosh darn it....I have been trying to build my team, my LMSC, and USMS over the past 10 years and it is just that kind of reaction that Margaret had - that have sometimes hampered my efforts.
I would say to Margaret (as others have also stated), you saw some of the non-friendlies...I feel this is less than 1% of USMS - but a visiable 1%. I would like to apologize. Would like to change your mind about Masters - if you a traveling about, myself (Columbus, Ohio) or one of the other posters here might like to show you their team (we are all proud of our local workout groups).
I would like to say to USMS (tongue in cheek) - how about some sensitivity/marketing training for our 'elite' - we have all this money to spend, right? - they are most visable ones and they really can make a positive impact on my ability to recruit and keep. New swimmers are easily awed by those who still can swim fast (I know, I still am) - a kind word would be a good service.
The other side of the recruiting coin is the mystique that "masters" is for the elite (Margaret mentioned it) - maybe thats for another thread. Even though 80-90% (by my calcuations) of registered Master's swimmers don't compete.
jack
jack
I have done some research and Jack is probably correct that not all Master swimmers are competitors. But the ones who are competitors seem to be the "elite" and those folks should stay out of NSGA.
I have joined USMS and will try going to some meets to see how it is.
Will let all know what I find out.
One gentleman, in the same agegroup as your mother, came to a USMS event recently, registered with USMS on the spot and won all his events. Prior to this USMS meet he had never been registered with Masters. He was a Senior Games swimmer exclusively. Here's an example of an "elite" recreational swimmer beating all the USMS swimmers. Guess we shouldn't have let him swim so we could keep the playing field more level? Maybe NSGA shouldn't let him swim now that he paid his 30 bucks to USMS, swam one masters meet, blew everyone away, and will be ranked in the top ten. I talked to him quite a bit. He was an extremely nice man. If you want exclude him, it'll be your loss.
Congrats, Margaret on joining USMS. I hope you can attend some local/state meets, not just the national ones. More low key and more middle/back of the pack group. Some of the zones have VERY active teams, which can make the whole scene/event much more enjoyable (just ask any New England Masters).
I would also encourage you to try some Masters practice's - THIS is where I personally believe Masters is in its best light. You have a group of people who like to workout (at different levels) and they share the cost of the pool and sometimes a coach.
I have had the pleasure to travel a little bit...and each practice group is different..they have their own personality.
If at the end of your travels, you are interested in starting a practice group, USMS has resources (not to mention this discussion group)...that would be willing to help you get started...there are no rules...just what works for you and other interested people.
As you can tell, IMHO I think USMS spend too much time talking ab out competition and not enough about the "teams" or groups that make it possible for someone to JUST swim. Thats my bias.
jack
I was curious about which USMS swimmers could have been perceived as rude. So I looked up the results. I counted up 20 competitors that I knew for a fact were USMS swimmers. Some of them I know pretty well. I have a hard time believing that they were rude and showed disdain to the slower swimmers. All of the people whose names I recognized are in fact extremely nice people, and more important, very good sports. What exactly did they say or do that you thought was rude? If they were simply faster than you, then they were not the ones who were rude. In athletic competition, it's important to be a good winner, and also to be a good loser. I myself have had a LOT of practice at being a good loser ;) .
Originally posted by zoomer
Jack mentioned "sensitivity/marketing training for our elite" - DocG, I would be happy to sponsor you for this seminar. I'm sure that somewhere in your post there were some valid points; however you did nothing to convince Swim2sea (or anyone else) that we, as a group, are not rude.
I wasn't aware that anyone really needs to be convinced that we, as a group, are not rude, so that issue didn't merit a response. It's pretty obvious that was not the real reason for her post.
