This thread is reminiscent of the recent thread 'Stroke Length versus Rate' by Bill White, if I recall well.
In another recent thread -'Distance per stroke'-, it appeared that slowing down the stroke -which easily increases the distance per stroke-, is a benefit.
It is a benefit to some degree, but it is not an absolute benefit.
To slow down the rate just to increase the length, that's detrimental overall in speed.
An absolute benefit is when an optimum rate to length ratio is found for each swimmer.
For my improvement now, with my current length, I need a higher rate, or cadence.
At the beginning of today's workout, the approximate following discussion took place between me and a teammate, who used to swim in age-group swimming at Mission Viejo, California.
Me: "Look at that swimmer. He is my height, takes one or two strokes per 25 yards more than I take (i.e.: takes 16 or 17 strokes per 25 yards) , yet he is faster than me."
She: "It's not in the Stroke Length that he gets you. Your Stroke Length is fine. It is with a faster cadence that he gets you."
Me: "There are people posting in the Masters Swimming Forum and there is the Total Immersion book, that emphasize to slow down the cadence only, and therefore to increase the stroke length."
(My note: the Total Immersion book does this emphasis only, by dismissing the benefits of cadence, starting in page 31; it wrongly believes that in time it is more worthy to work on stroke length than on the quickly declining stroke cadence).
She: "I never bought into Total Immersion."
Me: "Neither did I. In 1990, when I was in Canada at my peak, and being coached in a club by a coach who is now coach of the Canadian Olympic Team, when swimming the 100 meters freestyle, he was urging me to increase my arm cadence. Since that peak, I lost in cadence, because I lost alertness."
Me: "How do I increase the cadence?
Isn't this higher cadence obtained with VO2Max (i.e.: oxygen fueling the swimming muscles), with fast-twitch swimming muscles and striated tissue that are developed best when a swimmer has a teenager growing body, and obtained also by physical conditioning?"
She: "It's the mental that commands the physical conditioning.
Think of the rhythm: tak_tak_tak... (type 1, like Matt Biondi is),
as opposed to: tak___tak___tak... (type 2),
as opposed to: tak_____tak_____tak... (type 3),
and as opposed to: tak_______tak_______tak... (type 4).
In distance swimming, you are a type 4 in the arms.
(My note: in the 2002 Long Course Nationals, I think that I was prepared by another coach -a neglectful coach-, as a type 4 in the arms).
When swimming distance, force yourself mentally to turn your arms in the rhythm tak_____tak_____tak... (type 3), and when swimming sprints, force yourself mentally to turn your arms in the rhythm tak____tak____tak... (type 2)."
After today's workout, the approximate following comments took place between me and the coach.
Me: "Kelly says that I have a type 4 cadence in the arms.
How do I quicken my cadence?"
Coach: "What we can do is to slow down your aerobic base send-offs, so that with more rest you can increase the quality in each swim, and develop more gears for speeds."
Me: "What I don't understand is how come I have a quick cadence in kicking, and a slow cadence (type 4) in the arms."
(My note: there were days around Christmas 2002, training Long Course, when I was kicking with a kickboard, 50 meters repeats leaving every 55 seconds while coming in 50 seconds. This is a very fast kicking for the Masters Swimming level. Overall, swimming in Masters Swimming in my age group, I am not very fast, but in long endurance swims I rank higher than in sprints).
Coach: "Are you coming tomorrow at UCSD, and watch the dual meet between UCSD and UC Santa Cruz? I have a late starter in swimming like you, who can kick fast and cannot move her arms quickly. Late starters in swimming are like that."
(My note: the coach is also coaching the middle-distance and the distance group of swimmers for the UCSD college team).
Me: "Isn't this because of VO2Max (i.e.: oxygen fueling the swimming muscles), and because of fast-twitch swimming muscles and striated tissue that are developed best when a swimmer has a teenager growing body?"
I think so.
I started to swim in public swim at age 25, and joined my first swimming club at age 28.
Under these conditions, what I did is very good, and now what I hope for, is to restore my own level from mid-90s and go from there...
Parents
Former Member
Originally posted by kaelonj
Ion,
There has been some very good points brought out in this discussion. Things to think about though is cadence isn't everything, I can get my cadence (arm turnover rate) faster than Gary Hall, that doesn't mean I will swim faster than him (It means I will have shorten my stroke or I am letting my arm slip through the water so each arm stroke is very inefficient).
...
Your 12.xx time is good, but do you think you could maintain that stroke cadence for a 50,100, 200 ? 50 maybe a 100 but for a 200 you will have to shift things around a little because of that limited power supply (and your bodied ability to rid of the waste buildup). Keep experimenting - remember you will learn from your mistakes as well as your successes.
Jeff
...
Jeff,
let's put back my statements, in the context I made them:
"Stroke Length and Rate are both very training-oriented, from building the swimmer VO2Max, best when one is a growing teenager."
is what I wrote in conclusion of my the third post.
What does this mean?
Speed (in meters/seconds) is Stroke Length (in meters/cycles) multiplied by Stroke Rate (in cycles/seconds).
Total Immersion, "...by dismissing the benefits of cadence, starting in page 31..." (as I wrote in my opening post of this thread), says work mainly on Length, and come race time use Length and Rate.
News:
Rate declines, without working on it.
I say, again:
"Stroke Length and Rate are both very training-oriented, from building the swimmer VO2Max, best when one is a growing teenager."
"Your 12.xx time is good, but do you think you could maintain that stroke cadence for a 50,100, 200 ?":
.) For a former age-group swimmer who trains now like an adult staying in shape, 12.xx time for 25 yards free, means a heart rate of say 150 beats per minute, with the swimmer VO2Max of maybe 7 blood vessels connecting the heart with the triceps, blood vessels that were developed when swimming during the teenage development of the body.
A 100 yards free in 48.xx, is then conceivable for this adult, with:
a heart rate in the first 25 yards of 150, in the second 25 -maintaining the same Cadence through fatigue- of 160, in the third 25 -maintaining the same Cadence through fatigue- of 170, and in the fourth 25 -maintaining the same Cadence through fatigue- of 180.
.) For a late starter in swimming, not having the swimmer VO2Max of 7 blood vessels connecting the heart with the triceps, there is instead a swimmer VO2Max of maybe 4 blood vessels connecting the heart with the triceps, blood vessels developed as an adult when training accordingly.
A 12.xx for 25 yards free, requires then for this late starter, a heart rate say of 170 beats per minute.
Starting a 100 free with 170, when the adult's maximum heart rate is 180, that's bad news.
The principle of improving the adult's swimming VO2Max is like for the teenage age-grouper, it is only harder when the body doesn't grow much anymore.
One adult can use this increased VO2Max in delivering and maintaining a superior Cadence:
5 blood vessels is better than 4 blood vessels, exactly like for a race car 12 cylinders is better than 8 cylinders.
Now, we go back to the context I stated for the Cadence work I did, and produced a 12.xx in 25 yards free:
"The result was that doing these 25s at the end of an aerobic workout, one day after a speed workout, so under extreme fatigue, I produced one 25 yards sprint from push off the wall, in 12.xx seconds."
I see this VO2Max workout trying to produce the 5th blood vessel, here.
As for you, Terry Laughlin of Total Immersion, and others saying that you have a high Cadence like Gary Hall does, but that you need to work on Stroke Length, I re-iterate my post:
"Stroke Length and Rate are both very training-oriented, from building the swimmer VO2Max, best when one is a growing teenager.".
Rate and Length work, they have vastly different results depending on the physionomy of each person, and there is no reason for any competitive swimmer to neglect the peak Rate in workouts until race time, because the peak Rate disappears if it is untrained.
Originally posted by kaelonj
Ion,
There has been some very good points brought out in this discussion. Things to think about though is cadence isn't everything, I can get my cadence (arm turnover rate) faster than Gary Hall, that doesn't mean I will swim faster than him (It means I will have shorten my stroke or I am letting my arm slip through the water so each arm stroke is very inefficient).
...
Your 12.xx time is good, but do you think you could maintain that stroke cadence for a 50,100, 200 ? 50 maybe a 100 but for a 200 you will have to shift things around a little because of that limited power supply (and your bodied ability to rid of the waste buildup). Keep experimenting - remember you will learn from your mistakes as well as your successes.
Jeff
...
Jeff,
let's put back my statements, in the context I made them:
"Stroke Length and Rate are both very training-oriented, from building the swimmer VO2Max, best when one is a growing teenager."
is what I wrote in conclusion of my the third post.
What does this mean?
Speed (in meters/seconds) is Stroke Length (in meters/cycles) multiplied by Stroke Rate (in cycles/seconds).
Total Immersion, "...by dismissing the benefits of cadence, starting in page 31..." (as I wrote in my opening post of this thread), says work mainly on Length, and come race time use Length and Rate.
News:
Rate declines, without working on it.
I say, again:
"Stroke Length and Rate are both very training-oriented, from building the swimmer VO2Max, best when one is a growing teenager."
"Your 12.xx time is good, but do you think you could maintain that stroke cadence for a 50,100, 200 ?":
.) For a former age-group swimmer who trains now like an adult staying in shape, 12.xx time for 25 yards free, means a heart rate of say 150 beats per minute, with the swimmer VO2Max of maybe 7 blood vessels connecting the heart with the triceps, blood vessels that were developed when swimming during the teenage development of the body.
A 100 yards free in 48.xx, is then conceivable for this adult, with:
a heart rate in the first 25 yards of 150, in the second 25 -maintaining the same Cadence through fatigue- of 160, in the third 25 -maintaining the same Cadence through fatigue- of 170, and in the fourth 25 -maintaining the same Cadence through fatigue- of 180.
.) For a late starter in swimming, not having the swimmer VO2Max of 7 blood vessels connecting the heart with the triceps, there is instead a swimmer VO2Max of maybe 4 blood vessels connecting the heart with the triceps, blood vessels developed as an adult when training accordingly.
A 12.xx for 25 yards free, requires then for this late starter, a heart rate say of 170 beats per minute.
Starting a 100 free with 170, when the adult's maximum heart rate is 180, that's bad news.
The principle of improving the adult's swimming VO2Max is like for the teenage age-grouper, it is only harder when the body doesn't grow much anymore.
One adult can use this increased VO2Max in delivering and maintaining a superior Cadence:
5 blood vessels is better than 4 blood vessels, exactly like for a race car 12 cylinders is better than 8 cylinders.
Now, we go back to the context I stated for the Cadence work I did, and produced a 12.xx in 25 yards free:
"The result was that doing these 25s at the end of an aerobic workout, one day after a speed workout, so under extreme fatigue, I produced one 25 yards sprint from push off the wall, in 12.xx seconds."
I see this VO2Max workout trying to produce the 5th blood vessel, here.
As for you, Terry Laughlin of Total Immersion, and others saying that you have a high Cadence like Gary Hall does, but that you need to work on Stroke Length, I re-iterate my post:
"Stroke Length and Rate are both very training-oriented, from building the swimmer VO2Max, best when one is a growing teenager.".
Rate and Length work, they have vastly different results depending on the physionomy of each person, and there is no reason for any competitive swimmer to neglect the peak Rate in workouts until race time, because the peak Rate disappears if it is untrained.
