This thread is reminiscent of the recent thread 'Stroke Length versus Rate' by Bill White, if I recall well.
In another recent thread -'Distance per stroke'-, it appeared that slowing down the stroke -which easily increases the distance per stroke-, is a benefit.
It is a benefit to some degree, but it is not an absolute benefit.
To slow down the rate just to increase the length, that's detrimental overall in speed.
An absolute benefit is when an optimum rate to length ratio is found for each swimmer.
For my improvement now, with my current length, I need a higher rate, or cadence.
At the beginning of today's workout, the approximate following discussion took place between me and a teammate, who used to swim in age-group swimming at Mission Viejo, California.
Me: "Look at that swimmer. He is my height, takes one or two strokes per 25 yards more than I take (i.e.: takes 16 or 17 strokes per 25 yards) , yet he is faster than me."
She: "It's not in the Stroke Length that he gets you. Your Stroke Length is fine. It is with a faster cadence that he gets you."
Me: "There are people posting in the Masters Swimming Forum and there is the Total Immersion book, that emphasize to slow down the cadence only, and therefore to increase the stroke length."
(My note: the Total Immersion book does this emphasis only, by dismissing the benefits of cadence, starting in page 31; it wrongly believes that in time it is more worthy to work on stroke length than on the quickly declining stroke cadence).
She: "I never bought into Total Immersion."
Me: "Neither did I. In 1990, when I was in Canada at my peak, and being coached in a club by a coach who is now coach of the Canadian Olympic Team, when swimming the 100 meters freestyle, he was urging me to increase my arm cadence. Since that peak, I lost in cadence, because I lost alertness."
Me: "How do I increase the cadence?
Isn't this higher cadence obtained with VO2Max (i.e.: oxygen fueling the swimming muscles), with fast-twitch swimming muscles and striated tissue that are developed best when a swimmer has a teenager growing body, and obtained also by physical conditioning?"
She: "It's the mental that commands the physical conditioning.
Think of the rhythm: tak_tak_tak... (type 1, like Matt Biondi is),
as opposed to: tak___tak___tak... (type 2),
as opposed to: tak_____tak_____tak... (type 3),
and as opposed to: tak_______tak_______tak... (type 4).
In distance swimming, you are a type 4 in the arms.
(My note: in the 2002 Long Course Nationals, I think that I was prepared by another coach -a neglectful coach-, as a type 4 in the arms).
When swimming distance, force yourself mentally to turn your arms in the rhythm tak_____tak_____tak... (type 3), and when swimming sprints, force yourself mentally to turn your arms in the rhythm tak____tak____tak... (type 2)."
After today's workout, the approximate following comments took place between me and the coach.
Me: "Kelly says that I have a type 4 cadence in the arms.
How do I quicken my cadence?"
Coach: "What we can do is to slow down your aerobic base send-offs, so that with more rest you can increase the quality in each swim, and develop more gears for speeds."
Me: "What I don't understand is how come I have a quick cadence in kicking, and a slow cadence (type 4) in the arms."
(My note: there were days around Christmas 2002, training Long Course, when I was kicking with a kickboard, 50 meters repeats leaving every 55 seconds while coming in 50 seconds. This is a very fast kicking for the Masters Swimming level. Overall, swimming in Masters Swimming in my age group, I am not very fast, but in long endurance swims I rank higher than in sprints).
Coach: "Are you coming tomorrow at UCSD, and watch the dual meet between UCSD and UC Santa Cruz? I have a late starter in swimming like you, who can kick fast and cannot move her arms quickly. Late starters in swimming are like that."
(My note: the coach is also coaching the middle-distance and the distance group of swimmers for the UCSD college team).
Me: "Isn't this because of VO2Max (i.e.: oxygen fueling the swimming muscles), and because of fast-twitch swimming muscles and striated tissue that are developed best when a swimmer has a teenager growing body?"
I think so.
I started to swim in public swim at age 25, and joined my first swimming club at age 28.
Under these conditions, what I did is very good, and now what I hope for, is to restore my own level from mid-90s and go from there...
Parents
Former Member
Ion,
There has been some very good points brought out in this discussion. Things to think about though is cadence isn't everything, I can get my cadence (arm turnover rate) faster than Gary Hall, that doesn't mean I will swim faster than him (It means I will have shorten my stroke or I am letting my arm slip through the water so each arm stroke is very inefficient). The bicycle analogy was pretty good, another way of thinking this is take a motorized vehicle (a Hummer is pretty close for this comparison)- say 1 gallon of gas in first gear at 6000 rpm, traveling at 20 mph will get you 2 miles (your all out sprint cadence). If you shift your car into second gear that same at 3000 RPM maintaining 20 mph will get you 2 miles with only using 1/2 gallon of gas (assuming we are taking a 2:1 gear ration from first gear or we could keep the same RPM (cadence) of 6000 and travel the same distance in a faster time. You could switch gears again to get even better performance but at some point your engine will bog down because you are trying to push gears that are too hard. I think this is a little better analogy since our body does have a fuel tank with a limited supply of energy, it can be conditioned to perform better but at some point a just a higher turnover rate or a more efficient arm pull with a lower turn over rate will not equate into more speed(hence in the racing world they are always tuning gear ratios - for boats its prop size and pitch in order to find the best performance) its a matter of finding a balance. Your 12.xx time is good, but do you think you could maintain that stroke cadence for a 50,100, 200 ? 50 maybe a 100 but for a 200 you will have to shift things around a little because of that limited power supply (and your bodied ability to rid of the waste buildup). Keep experimenting - remember you will learn from your mistakes as well as your successes.
Jeff
PS - just kidding about the Hummer
Ion,
There has been some very good points brought out in this discussion. Things to think about though is cadence isn't everything, I can get my cadence (arm turnover rate) faster than Gary Hall, that doesn't mean I will swim faster than him (It means I will have shorten my stroke or I am letting my arm slip through the water so each arm stroke is very inefficient). The bicycle analogy was pretty good, another way of thinking this is take a motorized vehicle (a Hummer is pretty close for this comparison)- say 1 gallon of gas in first gear at 6000 rpm, traveling at 20 mph will get you 2 miles (your all out sprint cadence). If you shift your car into second gear that same at 3000 RPM maintaining 20 mph will get you 2 miles with only using 1/2 gallon of gas (assuming we are taking a 2:1 gear ration from first gear or we could keep the same RPM (cadence) of 6000 and travel the same distance in a faster time. You could switch gears again to get even better performance but at some point your engine will bog down because you are trying to push gears that are too hard. I think this is a little better analogy since our body does have a fuel tank with a limited supply of energy, it can be conditioned to perform better but at some point a just a higher turnover rate or a more efficient arm pull with a lower turn over rate will not equate into more speed(hence in the racing world they are always tuning gear ratios - for boats its prop size and pitch in order to find the best performance) its a matter of finding a balance. Your 12.xx time is good, but do you think you could maintain that stroke cadence for a 50,100, 200 ? 50 maybe a 100 but for a 200 you will have to shift things around a little because of that limited power supply (and your bodied ability to rid of the waste buildup). Keep experimenting - remember you will learn from your mistakes as well as your successes.
Jeff
PS - just kidding about the Hummer
