This thread is reminiscent of the recent thread 'Stroke Length versus Rate' by Bill White, if I recall well.
In another recent thread -'Distance per stroke'-, it appeared that slowing down the stroke -which easily increases the distance per stroke-, is a benefit.
It is a benefit to some degree, but it is not an absolute benefit.
To slow down the rate just to increase the length, that's detrimental overall in speed.
An absolute benefit is when an optimum rate to length ratio is found for each swimmer.
For my improvement now, with my current length, I need a higher rate, or cadence.
At the beginning of today's workout, the approximate following discussion took place between me and a teammate, who used to swim in age-group swimming at Mission Viejo, California.
Me: "Look at that swimmer. He is my height, takes one or two strokes per 25 yards more than I take (i.e.: takes 16 or 17 strokes per 25 yards) , yet he is faster than me."
She: "It's not in the Stroke Length that he gets you. Your Stroke Length is fine. It is with a faster cadence that he gets you."
Me: "There are people posting in the Masters Swimming Forum and there is the Total Immersion book, that emphasize to slow down the cadence only, and therefore to increase the stroke length."
(My note: the Total Immersion book does this emphasis only, by dismissing the benefits of cadence, starting in page 31; it wrongly believes that in time it is more worthy to work on stroke length than on the quickly declining stroke cadence).
She: "I never bought into Total Immersion."
Me: "Neither did I. In 1990, when I was in Canada at my peak, and being coached in a club by a coach who is now coach of the Canadian Olympic Team, when swimming the 100 meters freestyle, he was urging me to increase my arm cadence. Since that peak, I lost in cadence, because I lost alertness."
Me: "How do I increase the cadence?
Isn't this higher cadence obtained with VO2Max (i.e.: oxygen fueling the swimming muscles), with fast-twitch swimming muscles and striated tissue that are developed best when a swimmer has a teenager growing body, and obtained also by physical conditioning?"
She: "It's the mental that commands the physical conditioning.
Think of the rhythm: tak_tak_tak... (type 1, like Matt Biondi is),
as opposed to: tak___tak___tak... (type 2),
as opposed to: tak_____tak_____tak... (type 3),
and as opposed to: tak_______tak_______tak... (type 4).
In distance swimming, you are a type 4 in the arms.
(My note: in the 2002 Long Course Nationals, I think that I was prepared by another coach -a neglectful coach-, as a type 4 in the arms).
When swimming distance, force yourself mentally to turn your arms in the rhythm tak_____tak_____tak... (type 3), and when swimming sprints, force yourself mentally to turn your arms in the rhythm tak____tak____tak... (type 2)."
After today's workout, the approximate following comments took place between me and the coach.
Me: "Kelly says that I have a type 4 cadence in the arms.
How do I quicken my cadence?"
Coach: "What we can do is to slow down your aerobic base send-offs, so that with more rest you can increase the quality in each swim, and develop more gears for speeds."
Me: "What I don't understand is how come I have a quick cadence in kicking, and a slow cadence (type 4) in the arms."
(My note: there were days around Christmas 2002, training Long Course, when I was kicking with a kickboard, 50 meters repeats leaving every 55 seconds while coming in 50 seconds. This is a very fast kicking for the Masters Swimming level. Overall, swimming in Masters Swimming in my age group, I am not very fast, but in long endurance swims I rank higher than in sprints).
Coach: "Are you coming tomorrow at UCSD, and watch the dual meet between UCSD and UC Santa Cruz? I have a late starter in swimming like you, who can kick fast and cannot move her arms quickly. Late starters in swimming are like that."
(My note: the coach is also coaching the middle-distance and the distance group of swimmers for the UCSD college team).
Me: "Isn't this because of VO2Max (i.e.: oxygen fueling the swimming muscles), and because of fast-twitch swimming muscles and striated tissue that are developed best when a swimmer has a teenager growing body?"
I think so.
I started to swim in public swim at age 25, and joined my first swimming club at age 28.
Under these conditions, what I did is very good, and now what I hope for, is to restore my own level from mid-90s and go from there...
Parents
Former Member
Originally posted by jim thornton
Ion,
Permit me to clarify and simplify, from my point of view, what you are saying.
...
Are these assumptions correct?
...
Yes.
Originally posted by jim thornton
...
As far as C slowing down with age, I had not thought about this before, and I am not sure it is true. Or put it this way: we probably all slow down a little, but how significant is the decline. Could my 25 year old self skip rope twice as fast as I can now at 50? I suspect I might have skipped faster back then--but not hugely so.
...
The peak times of Hall and Vendt, done with their own peak Cadences (or 'Tempos') of 59.0 cycles per minute, and 51.1 cycles per minute, cannot be reproduced by Hall and Vendt with less physical conditioning than they were, and cannot be reproduced by Hall and Vendt much later on in life.
Training-wise, if Hall and Vendt will join later on in life the more modest Masters Swimming, they will have their tremendous Stroke Length, but not their lifetime peak Cadences:
Masters Swimmers train more casually than Olympians, including the physical fitness to generate the top Cadence.
Age-wise (i.e.: "...but how significant is the decline."), probably with focused training over the years, the Cadence declines a little bit in step with how the heart rate declines, which is relatively not much.
The key is to have the proper training, obtaining the peak Cadence and maintaining as much of it.
In yesterday's workout, the woman swimmer who used to be an age-group swimmer at Mission Viejo and told me about the types of Cadence, was shouting at me to sprint 25s with my highest Cadence.
The result was that doing these 25s at the end of an aerobic workout, one day after a speed workout, so under extreme fatigue, I produced one 25 yards sprint from push of the wall, in 12.xx seconds.
I am thinking:
"No wonder I lost many years, before focusing now on Cadence, an important parameter in speed.".
Originally posted by jim thornton
Ion,
Permit me to clarify and simplify, from my point of view, what you are saying.
...
Are these assumptions correct?
...
Yes.
Originally posted by jim thornton
...
As far as C slowing down with age, I had not thought about this before, and I am not sure it is true. Or put it this way: we probably all slow down a little, but how significant is the decline. Could my 25 year old self skip rope twice as fast as I can now at 50? I suspect I might have skipped faster back then--but not hugely so.
...
The peak times of Hall and Vendt, done with their own peak Cadences (or 'Tempos') of 59.0 cycles per minute, and 51.1 cycles per minute, cannot be reproduced by Hall and Vendt with less physical conditioning than they were, and cannot be reproduced by Hall and Vendt much later on in life.
Training-wise, if Hall and Vendt will join later on in life the more modest Masters Swimming, they will have their tremendous Stroke Length, but not their lifetime peak Cadences:
Masters Swimmers train more casually than Olympians, including the physical fitness to generate the top Cadence.
Age-wise (i.e.: "...but how significant is the decline."), probably with focused training over the years, the Cadence declines a little bit in step with how the heart rate declines, which is relatively not much.
The key is to have the proper training, obtaining the peak Cadence and maintaining as much of it.
In yesterday's workout, the woman swimmer who used to be an age-group swimmer at Mission Viejo and told me about the types of Cadence, was shouting at me to sprint 25s with my highest Cadence.
The result was that doing these 25s at the end of an aerobic workout, one day after a speed workout, so under extreme fatigue, I produced one 25 yards sprint from push of the wall, in 12.xx seconds.
I am thinking:
"No wonder I lost many years, before focusing now on Cadence, an important parameter in speed.".
