This thread is reminiscent of the recent thread 'Stroke Length versus Rate' by Bill White, if I recall well.
In another recent thread -'Distance per stroke'-, it appeared that slowing down the stroke -which easily increases the distance per stroke-, is a benefit.
It is a benefit to some degree, but it is not an absolute benefit.
To slow down the rate just to increase the length, that's detrimental overall in speed.
An absolute benefit is when an optimum rate to length ratio is found for each swimmer.
For my improvement now, with my current length, I need a higher rate, or cadence.
At the beginning of today's workout, the approximate following discussion took place between me and a teammate, who used to swim in age-group swimming at Mission Viejo, California.
Me: "Look at that swimmer. He is my height, takes one or two strokes per 25 yards more than I take (i.e.: takes 16 or 17 strokes per 25 yards) , yet he is faster than me."
She: "It's not in the Stroke Length that he gets you. Your Stroke Length is fine. It is with a faster cadence that he gets you."
Me: "There are people posting in the Masters Swimming Forum and there is the Total Immersion book, that emphasize to slow down the cadence only, and therefore to increase the stroke length."
(My note: the Total Immersion book does this emphasis only, by dismissing the benefits of cadence, starting in page 31; it wrongly believes that in time it is more worthy to work on stroke length than on the quickly declining stroke cadence).
She: "I never bought into Total Immersion."
Me: "Neither did I. In 1990, when I was in Canada at my peak, and being coached in a club by a coach who is now coach of the Canadian Olympic Team, when swimming the 100 meters freestyle, he was urging me to increase my arm cadence. Since that peak, I lost in cadence, because I lost alertness."
Me: "How do I increase the cadence?
Isn't this higher cadence obtained with VO2Max (i.e.: oxygen fueling the swimming muscles), with fast-twitch swimming muscles and striated tissue that are developed best when a swimmer has a teenager growing body, and obtained also by physical conditioning?"
She: "It's the mental that commands the physical conditioning.
Think of the rhythm: tak_tak_tak... (type 1, like Matt Biondi is),
as opposed to: tak___tak___tak... (type 2),
as opposed to: tak_____tak_____tak... (type 3),
and as opposed to: tak_______tak_______tak... (type 4).
In distance swimming, you are a type 4 in the arms.
(My note: in the 2002 Long Course Nationals, I think that I was prepared by another coach -a neglectful coach-, as a type 4 in the arms).
When swimming distance, force yourself mentally to turn your arms in the rhythm tak_____tak_____tak... (type 3), and when swimming sprints, force yourself mentally to turn your arms in the rhythm tak____tak____tak... (type 2)."
After today's workout, the approximate following comments took place between me and the coach.
Me: "Kelly says that I have a type 4 cadence in the arms.
How do I quicken my cadence?"
Coach: "What we can do is to slow down your aerobic base send-offs, so that with more rest you can increase the quality in each swim, and develop more gears for speeds."
Me: "What I don't understand is how come I have a quick cadence in kicking, and a slow cadence (type 4) in the arms."
(My note: there were days around Christmas 2002, training Long Course, when I was kicking with a kickboard, 50 meters repeats leaving every 55 seconds while coming in 50 seconds. This is a very fast kicking for the Masters Swimming level. Overall, swimming in Masters Swimming in my age group, I am not very fast, but in long endurance swims I rank higher than in sprints).
Coach: "Are you coming tomorrow at UCSD, and watch the dual meet between UCSD and UC Santa Cruz? I have a late starter in swimming like you, who can kick fast and cannot move her arms quickly. Late starters in swimming are like that."
(My note: the coach is also coaching the middle-distance and the distance group of swimmers for the UCSD college team).
Me: "Isn't this because of VO2Max (i.e.: oxygen fueling the swimming muscles), and because of fast-twitch swimming muscles and striated tissue that are developed best when a swimmer has a teenager growing body?"
I think so.
I started to swim in public swim at age 25, and joined my first swimming club at age 28.
Under these conditions, what I did is very good, and now what I hope for, is to restore my own level from mid-90s and go from there...
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Former Member
Ion,
Very interesting thread. This happens to be something I've been experimenting with since getting back in the water over a year ago now.
Being curious about the T.I. school of thought, I bought the book watched the video, and became sold on the thought that maximum distance per stroke would ultimately lead to faster swimming. After become a model 'front quadrant' freestyle swimmer, I noticed somewhat of a difficulty in getting a fast turnover, or "cadence" for sprinting. The arm turn over started to look more like slow motion swimming compared to others. I decided to get the overlap in the front quadrant out of my stroke.
Not that this was altogether a bad thing to have learned, but I feel that FQ swimming is geared more towards distance racers who will really benefit from the lower energy expenditure that this swimming style promotes.
The important ingredient to sprint swimming is directly related to a quick turnover in the stroke cylce. I've noticed that even though Alexander Popov is referenced numerous times in the Total Immersion book, he is not a front quadrant swimmer. In other words, as one hand enters and begins the catch phase, the other hand is exiting the water at the end of the push phase.
Hands are in total opposition of each other. In any event he swims long, and definitely maintains a low stroke count. But the important consideration is that there is no glide in his movement through the water. A strong kick keeps forward momentum during the stroke cylce, and helps eliminate the need to glide and roll.
I am curious to see what some of the others would have to say about stroke rate, especially Tall Pall who's ranked number one in the 50, 100, and 200 for his age group.
Thanks, Val.
Ion,
Very interesting thread. This happens to be something I've been experimenting with since getting back in the water over a year ago now.
Being curious about the T.I. school of thought, I bought the book watched the video, and became sold on the thought that maximum distance per stroke would ultimately lead to faster swimming. After become a model 'front quadrant' freestyle swimmer, I noticed somewhat of a difficulty in getting a fast turnover, or "cadence" for sprinting. The arm turn over started to look more like slow motion swimming compared to others. I decided to get the overlap in the front quadrant out of my stroke.
Not that this was altogether a bad thing to have learned, but I feel that FQ swimming is geared more towards distance racers who will really benefit from the lower energy expenditure that this swimming style promotes.
The important ingredient to sprint swimming is directly related to a quick turnover in the stroke cylce. I've noticed that even though Alexander Popov is referenced numerous times in the Total Immersion book, he is not a front quadrant swimmer. In other words, as one hand enters and begins the catch phase, the other hand is exiting the water at the end of the push phase.
Hands are in total opposition of each other. In any event he swims long, and definitely maintains a low stroke count. But the important consideration is that there is no glide in his movement through the water. A strong kick keeps forward momentum during the stroke cylce, and helps eliminate the need to glide and roll.
I am curious to see what some of the others would have to say about stroke rate, especially Tall Pall who's ranked number one in the 50, 100, and 200 for his age group.
Thanks, Val.
