Approach to teaching competitive swimming?

Originally posted by kaelonj ... I don't believe the TI book was meant as the magic bullit to train a world class swimmer, but more as a training aid, teaching core fundamentals or a foundation in which to build your swimming success on. ... I suspected this. Not that I can train train like a world class swimmer, but that I can benefit from a coach with world class awareness. Originally posted by kaelonj ... Most of the drills we did are the same ones found in the TI book. ... I don't know precisely the TI drills, but now with UCSD Masters I do drills under the coached program. They are comparable with the ones I was doing in 1996 when swimming with Stanford Masters. Originally posted by kaelonj ... I think it foolish for a swim coach to think that by just doing easy drill swimming will get a swimmer to a sub :20 50 free, a good analogy would be that easy walking is not going to make someone do a sub :10 100 meter run - the easy walking will help you in being able to finish the 100 meters but no guarentee of being a competitive sprint runner. ... I agree. Originally posted by kaelonj ... Ion: I think you have to rethink your evaluation process in how you go about finding a coach. You in the past have mentioned how you felt some of the coaching was off (not getting a proper taper, etc.). One of the things you mentioned was looking for a coach for your one on one because he was a good distance freestyler and trains two competitive distance swimmers - this doesn't necessarily make that coach a good coach (think about professional sports, how many hall of famers have gone on to be great coaches, not many). ... I picture a coach that succeeded in coaching, like Boissiere (Fra) did with Caron (Fra), from scratch until Olympic medals, or a former good competitor with a burning passion for coaching improvements. Originally posted by kaelonj ... You may have to shop around a little to find a mesh, you hear about a lot of athletes leaving their coaches because of personality clashes - not to say it is one or the others fault, but finding that cohesiveness can be difficult. Also be aware that coaches are sometimes lucky (talented swimmer just happens to come their way) and all of the sudden they are the person looked upon to provide advice. Have patience, Good luck and happy swimmming. Jeff I hear you. Thank you for analyzing the setting.

I'll have to admit I have not read the TI book cover to cover but have perused it. I don't believe the TI book was meant as the magic bullit to train a world class swimmer, but more as a training aid, teaching core fundamentals or a foundation in which to build your swimming success on. I was fortunate enough to swim with a coach in the mid/late eighties who coached with a balance - drills with deliberate swimming (ie sprint freestlyers did a workout more geared to sprint free not tons of distance yardage or massive IM workouts, we still did 'crosstrain' but trained specifically). Most of the drills we did are the same ones found in the TI book. I think it foolish for a swim coach to think that by just doing easy drill swimming will get a swimmer to a sub :20 50 free, a good analogy would be that easy walking is not going to make someone do a sub :10 100 meter run - the easy walking will help you in being able to finish the 100 meters but no guarentee of being a competitive sprint runner. Ion: I think you have to rethink your evaluation process in how you go about finding a coach. You in the past have mentioned how you felt some of the coaching was off (not getting a proper taper, etc.). One of the things you mentioned was looking for a coach for your one on one because he was a good distance freestyler and trains two competitive distance swimmers - this doesn't necessarily make that coach a good coach (think about professional sports, how many hall of famers have gone on to be great coaches, not many). You may have to shop around a little to find a mesh, you hear about a lot of athletes leaving their coaches because of personality clashes - not to say it is one or the others fault, but finding that cohesiveness can be difficult. Also be aware that coaches are sometimes lucky (talented swimmer just happens to come their way) and all of the sudden they are the person looked upon to provide advice. Have patience, Good luck and happy swimmming. Jeff

This has been a fascinating and enlightening conversation, with lots of good nuggets tossed on the way. (I'll be trying Rain Man's flip turn method myself in practice.) Rain Man: I think that if you and Emmett focused on precisely what kind of swimmer you are discussing, you would find yourselves in violent agreement. Both Terry and Emmett in their books talk about the need for interval training if a swimmer is engaged in serious preparation for competition. In fact, in his articles Emmett has discussed learning how to vary your stroke count while swimming a given distance in a given time. (Playing off SL vs SR.) His analogy is having different tools in your tool kit so that during a race you have options for trying to outrace your opponent. The point that TI advocates are trying to make is that simply measuring your training by how fast you go and what interval you use is incomplete. It can be just as challenging, and they argue more valuable, to learn how to swim fast, WHILE MAINTAINING STROKE LENGTH. Terry talks about playing swimming golf: swim a set of whatever on an interval, for each repetition add your time in seconds and your stroke count, and try to make that score go down. Is this conditioning? Of course it is! Do swimmers learn to use a higher SR to go faster? Sure. But, the idea is to learn how to trade off SL for speed EFFECTIVELY, so you swim at a faster but sustainable pace. Where I think the point of apperant disagreement comes up is that you want to focus on elite competitive swimming, whereas TI aims mostly at fitness swimmers who may have little interest in racing and triathletes. They are trying to reach the latter group, who clearly need to focus on good mechanics first. The problem with many traditional coaching approaches is that they assume the methods that work best for elite swimmers must be best for everyone. (Hey, that's how they got to be elite.) For a new swimmer, that can mean lots of yards using an inefficient stroke. For triathletes in particular, that feeds right into their work-work-work mind-set, and then they wonder why they work so hard to go so slow in the water. TI says that for these folks, learn good mechanics first (which can itself by physically demanding), and let endurance happen. Discuss this with any good Little League coach, and he'll say "Duh!! Of course you teach them the skills first, then work on their arm strength and foot speed." We swimmers want to train like we are all Bonnie Blair, when if fact many/most of us have trouble just staying up-right on skates. So, when you hear that (especially when the more strident advocates riff for paragraphs on end about the alleged stupidity of traditional swim coaching methods), you think they are talking about all competitive swimmers, but they are not. Next, let me say a bit about the cult/snake-oil salesman issue. After reading some of Terry's articles, I can understand how you would feel that way. He seems to love his cut and paste function, and he tells the same stories and uses the same analogies over and over. When I read a sample chapter from one of his new books on the web, I said to myself "Gee this is the same as one of the chapters in his first book , almost word for word." I've also noticed that most of his messages will encourage you to buy one of his products. However, consider the following. First, since I borrowed a copy of "Total Immersion" from the library about a year ago, I have purchased a copy of it and Emmett's "Fitness Swimming" (about $20 each), and my family got me the two TI videos for Xmas (maybe $50?). In other words, I have spend $90 on TI products, or about two months worth of dues for my Masters club. I'm sure it's great to have this system in which he believes strongly, but I don't think Terry or anyone else is growing fabulously wealthy off of books, videos, pool equipment or seminars. Second, the new drills in the video are better and more effective than the drills in the old book. It could be he is recommending something because he has an objective reason to believe it will actually work. Third, many of the mechanical fine points TI teaches have been around for years. In my mind, that gives the concept credibility. What makes TI different and more effective is how the specific drills fit together and build on each other. Fourth, after dropping $90, total between the two of them, Terry and Emmett have been kind enough to reply to me personally through email when I ask a question and/or post a response addressed specifically to my question on their web sites' discussion forum. Terry in particular is a little fanatical about it. I don't think I have ever waited longer than 36 hours to hear from him. So, maybe Terry is trying to sell me something. But, given that most of what he has provided me has worked, and that he has given many of his ideas and his time to me for free, he has built up just a little credibility. Finally, lots of people have asked how many Olympians have Terry or Emmett coached. Is it necessary to have an explicit endorsement from an Olympian before one's coaching is considered valid? There are 100's of coaches out there who don't have that credential. Are they all unproven crack-pots until one of their swimmers hits the big time? And, should that be the measure of effectiveness, given that Olympian swimmers are a miniscule, and insanely talented, fraction of the swimming population? In other words, is what is good for them necessarily effective for most swimmers? OK, I've blathered enough. But, whether you like TI or not, it's not a scam and it does work. Matt

I think many posts here and of-the-shelf programs such as Total Immersion, have in common the fact that they are expecting a swimmer to mold into a technique. The preference that I have, is different: to me, good coaching does the opposite, it molds technique into a swimmer. It does so, by first an in-depth learning on how the swimmer operates, from novice kid to adult swimmer. Examples of a swimmer expected to mold into a technique are apparent to me when based on perceived defects in races I have done in Hawaii: 1) I train with the wrong technique too much mileage; the particular answer in this issue, is that in fact I do more of the coached workouts than others; these coached workouts come packaged with their blend of technique drills and mileage; this blend is comparable to what I experienced in 1995 and 1996 with the Stanford Masters; the blend of technique drills and mileage I saw being done in the Stanford college practices, makes me think the school relies mainly on good recruiting, then it does mature a few and does break many through intensive yardage; these days, to coached workouts here I add on my own kicking, an aspect neglected in Masters, and I add some drills, so I add qualities when I add quantity to the coached workouts. 2) I breathe too much, as in twice in the same cycle; the particular answer in this issue, after discussing it with an one-on-one coach yesterday, is to keep it like it is now; I developed asthma in the beginning of the 90s, and I need to inhale twice per cycle through a narrow windpipe. These particular examples of answers are done to tailor individually, when a coach is as directly involved in them as the swimmer is. There are many by-the-book swimmers, and there are many not by-the-existing-book swimmers who operate and develop their ways. Facing with the challenge of longtime working closely with the latter, many posts here advocating the former would adjust in time to the latter. Another claim made in of-the-shelf Total Immersion, is to discard , wrongly I think, kicking with a board, pulling with a pull buoy, and promote a blend of drills and yardage where drills are too emphasized since I am a proponent of better conditioning leads to more spectrum in techniques.

I, like Wayne, hesitate to enter into this thread again. BUT, The best coaches in the world are not necessarily the coaches of Olympic swimmers for exactly the reasons Wayne points out. It IS painful to watch Olympic swimmers make costly mistakes in their races. Gary Hall's examples are excellent ones. These swimmers, like any other athlete, will only fix their bad habits when they get beat by someone who does it better. In my opinion, the best coaches are often the coaches of beginner swimmers. These coaches have to mold completely raw talent into swimmers, fix mistakes that are common to every beginner swimmers, and most of the time, do not allow swimmers to make excuses for why they can't do something. Anyone who has tried to teach a stubborn 9-10 year old how to improve knows what I am talking about. Also, in my opinion, the best coaches do look at the athlete as an individual when they access where improvement should be made. Swimmers who are 6' 7" are going to swimm differently than swimmers who are 5' 10". Swimmers with asthma have different challenges than swimmers who do not. Coaches should coach to optimize the individual's performance given the individual's limitations. That same coach should also explain to the swimmer that what they are doing may not be as fast as if they could swim in another manner. After that, it is up to the swimmer to decide what they want to do. Ion, with your asthma, Tom Dolan has asthma - pretty bad too. He does not breathe twice per cycle. I am willing to bet he has learned how to exhale hard enough to get enough oxygen to keep going. So, the best question for you is, do you need to breathe more often, or do you need to change how you exhale? I believe every time you breathe, you add about .4 seconds to your time. What do you want? Paul Windrath

I normally try very hard NOT to comment or reply to Fast ION, but when ION starts analyzing coaching I CAN'T take it any more. It is painfully obvious to all of us, that with your late start in swimming, you missed the coordination and muscle memory that swimmers at younger ages get through years of both training correctly, and many many drill sets. It is also obvious to all that over training will not get you faster; in fact you are probably training in the high aerobic threshold or anaerobic heart rate zones too much per week. You will never taper properly if you are over training. You somehow equate a FRECH coach’s ability to get an extremely talented swimmer to the Olympics. From what I have seen, both the English and French coaches have neglected technique badly, and that is the reason the Russians and Italians have done so well in the last four Olympics. There have not been a whole lot of French Olympic Swimming Champions in the last 90 years. I feel that many of the Russian, Australian, and Italian swimmers now have better turns and technique than even the American swimmers. They race short course World Cup races with lots of money at stake. I can’t believe the jealousy in the swimming community over the TI coaching methods. I always say beware of the coach who knows it all. The great coaches are always learning. Over the last 40 years, I though I knew how to coach breaststroke and fly, but after watching one videotape on short axis strokes, I immediately adopted the TI methods. Yes, many other coaches have taught the same drills, in fact the reason I adopted the TI methods was during a UCLA masters swim meet, my friend and great coach Gerry Rodrigues had some Olympians swim some exhibition swims for us. When you see these people doing the EXACT same drills as TI coaches before they race, it makes a lifetime impression. And your comment on kick boards is so far off base; just because one elite swimmer uses kick boards do not make it right. Most coaches will tell you that for every inch hour head is up above the ideal position, your legs will sink two inches. Practicing with BAD form will mean you will compete with BAD form. Most Masters coaches allow kicking with boards for one reason; it is the social, non-productive part of the workout. I have spent the last three years taking the ASCA courses, and one thing stands out. Dara Torres coach said it best, “We don’t swim take way more” during her come back. What any coach learned by swimming, class work, or coaching during the 70’s, 80’s, and 90’s is not how swimming technique is taught now. Fast Ion, just for our peace of mind, who do you normally swim for in San Diego? I agree with much of what Philip says, except “One should be careful of saying that 'they could be so much better if they only . . .' Who are we kidding? They are already the best in the world. “ I reviewed every Olympic tape for the last twenty years, and it is painful to watch some of the stroke and technique errors in Olympians. Watch the “Ultimate Breaststroke” video, An Olympic Champion making serious errors, then watch technicians like Mike Barrowman, with almost zero errors. One reason his time has stood for ten years. Watch the American freestyle sprinter loose the 1996 50 and 100 races because he looks up at the wall touch, instead of looking down and driving the hand through the touch pad. He also did not do the 2—3 dolphin kicks off the start that the Russian did. Now fast forward to 2000, he wins the 50 free (tie) beating the Russian by finishing correctly this time. Ion, isn’t the pitch from TI “sales pitch intended for middle-aged master swimmers” just fitting you perfectly? If you ever get a chance to take a TI course from Emmett, or Michael Collins (Irvine CA) you would probably spend the days telling the coaches how wrong they are, but I would bet you would swim MUCH faster, and your tune would change. Coach Wayne McCauley ASCA Level 4 Masters (soon to be 5)

Originally posted by breastroker I normally try very hard NOT to comment or reply to Fast ION, but when ION starts analyzing coaching I CAN'T take it any more. ... You should. Originally posted by breastroker ... Dara Torres coach said it best, “We don’t swim take way more” during her come back. ... I already know that quote. Dara Torres was in a San Francisco Chronicle article about using unindendified legal supplements giving the benefits of illegal products. I guess they matter.

Re the last post : Finally, lots of people have asked how many Olympians have Terry or Emmett coached. Is it necessary to have an explicit endorsement from an Olympian before one's coaching is considered valid? There are 100's of coaches out there who don't have that credential. Are they all unproven crack-pots until one of their swimmers hits the big time? And, should that be the measure of effectiveness, given that Olympian swimmers are a miniscule, and insanely talented, fraction of the swimming population? In other words, is what is good for them necessarily effective for most swimmers? I agree. Not many of us master swimmers are ever going to go to the olympics. Our goals are different than Olympians' goals - mainly fitness, fun, and getting faster (but not the fastest in the world - that's unrealistic) so our coaching needs differ from Olympians' coachind needs. And I think we take ourselves a tad too seriously if we whine about our coaches' lack of expertise...most are volunteers...

Originally posted by Paul Windrath ... In my opinion, the best coaches are often the coaches of beginner swimmers. These coaches have to mold completely raw talent into swimmers, fix mistakes that are common to every beginner swimmers, ... ... That's why I wrote that I picture a good coach as one "with a burning passion for coaching improvements.". I don't give full credit to programs relying on high recruiting, or coaches who give a mission to a swimmer but don't get involved. Originally posted by Paul Windrath ... ...and most of the time, do not allow swimmers to make excuses for why they can't do something. ... Here, I disagree. I met former high school swimmers, turned off by brutal coaching. Originally posted by Paul Windrath ... Coaches should coach to optimize the individual's performance given the individual's limitations. That same coach should also explain to the swimmer that what they are doing may not be as fast as if they could swim in another manner. After that, it is up to the swimmer to decide what they want to do. Ion, with your asthma, Tom Dolan has asthma - pretty bad too. He does not breathe twice per cycle. I am willing to bet he has learned how to exhale hard enough to get enough oxygen to keep going. So, the best question for you is, do you need to breathe more often, or do you need to change how you exhale? I believe every time you breathe, you add about .4 seconds to your time. What do you want? Paul Windrath I agree with this, except about Tom Dolan, who has his individuality addressed, and with adding .4 seconds: in my case, comparing breath control and breathing freely when needed, makes breathing freely the best of the two evils, speedwise. Up until the early 90s, I was doing perfect bilateral breathing every three strokes in 1,500 meter freestyle races, but that's gone now.

Originally posted by breastroker ... And your comment on kick boards is so far off base; just because one elite swimmer uses kick boards do not make it right. Most coaches will tell you that for every inch hour head is up above the ideal position, your legs will sink two inches. Practicing with BAD form will mean you will compete with BAD form. Most Masters coaches allow kicking with boards for one reason; it is the social, non-productive part of the workout. ... This is a US Masters blunder: 1) in 1994, after the Commonwealth Games in Victoria, Canada, Chris Fydler (Aus.), who last competed in the 2000SydneyOlympics, told me that Alex. Popov (Rus) does 1/3 of his weekly mileage in kicking with a board, and does a 50 meter kick in a 50 meter pool in 27 seconds; 2) Ian Thorpe (Aus), Grant Hackett (Aus), Klete Keller (US), Josh Davis (US), Brooke Bennett (US), Chris Thompson (US) and many more, do extensive kicking with a board in practice; they say and I say too, it is a key of swimming from 50 meter to 1,500 meters.