Now that I've gone through the hassle of signing up as a member of this dicussion group, this gets more and more fun. Maybe I'll get fired from my job :)
Anyway... I'm sure that ALL Masters level swimmers have heard of Total Immersion (from now on referred to as TI) swimming, correct? What are everyone's opinions about TI swimming? I am most curious because as a coach of age group swimmers, I was looking for training videos for our kids. I happened upon TI and liked what I saw... at first.
Here's some background for my experience with TI... very well put together, most of what they teach has been in existence for some time anyway, and they certainly are good for teaching novice/beginner swimmers the basic technique for swimming.
However, when looking to swim fast, and I mean fast, not lap swim quality, but truly competitively, I thing TI has missed to boat completely. Yes, smooth and efficient swimming is nice, but did anyone see the NCAA's? There are 20 year old men swimming 9 strokes per length in breaststroke! We have a number of age group coaches in my area teaching their kids how to swim breaststroke at 6 or 7 strokes a length!!! What gives? Extended glide is one thing, but when you slow down your stroke to such an extent just to achieve long and fluid strokes you sacrifice speed tremendously.
Hey, if you can swim 9 strokes a length at 1 second per stroke that is WAY better than 6 strokes a length at 2 seconds per stroke. Simple math.
Anthony Ervin of Cal swam the 100 free in the follwing SPL... 12 (start)/15/16/16. I could be off but that's what I was able to get from the (ahem- PALTRY) ESPN coverage. Now TI has goal SPL's of 12/13! Hello, if the BEST sprinter in history takes 8 cycles, shouldn't that tell us something? Turnover is very important. Same with streamlining, yes streamlines are nice and quite important but A.E. pops up after 5 yards MAX out of each turn. You only serve yourself well if your streamline is faster than you can swim, most age group swimmers would be well-served to explode out of the turn and swim within 3-4 yards.
Alas, it's been a slow day finishing my work for the week. Just looking to start a nice discussion. It's been my experience that a lot of Masters level swimmers are also engaged in coaching age group swimming at some level, and therefore I feel we can get some good dialogue going on this issue.
Now I've just used TI as an example because that's what I've had my experience with, but more general is what keys do you all stress when trying to mold competitive swimmers?
Au revoir,
-Rain Man
Parents
Former Member
Quote:
"Also found the race analysis system for The 9th FINA World Swimming Championships FUKUOKA 2001. I took the men's 100 Free, and made two groups: the eight finalists versus the 16 semi-finalists. As a group, the eight finalists had longer stroke length AND shorter stroke frequency than the semifinalists. Next, I divided them into three groups: six in A (under 49 sec), seven in B (between 49.0 - 49.5), and ten in C (between 49.5 - 50.0). Group B had the lowest stroke frequency, C the highest, so SR is muddled. However, for stroke length A had the longest, while C had the shortest, so SL has a strong correlation with speed."
Mattson- Impressive research, however I believe this logic to be flawed. Are they faster because of their greater SL, or is their SL greater because they are faster. Now that may not make enough sense but what I mean is OF COURSE THE FASTEST SWIMMERS HAVE A BETTER SL!!! They are the faster swimmers! Now what I would argue is take two swimmers of equal talent (i.e. Bennett/Munz) and compare them. It shows that differing styles can be equally fast.
Breaststroke pullout research at UB was a great piece. Too many people sacrifice speed for distance in their pullouts. Again, the main issue there is to find the point at which you are the fastest. It takes coaches with stopwatches and a lot of practice. I guarantee that unless you do the research for an individual swimmer to find what is best, their pullouts will be hurting them in a breaststroke race.
Wayne- We might actually agree on something :D If I read your post correctly, you seem to prefer the grab start over the track start. As do I. We may like the grab start for differing reasons, but I don't see how a start that puts you in the water sooner and at a flatter angle with a 1-foot pushoff from the block is a faster start. JMHO.
Finally... Mattson... my core technique ideas that are taught by TI that are merely a glitzy re-packaging of what has been taught all along... 1) Streamlined body position is faster. 2) Good technique is the most important aspect of swimming fast.
The Stanford series put out back in the late 80's/early 90's had many of the same drills that are on the TI videos. TI has renamed them and chosen to re-word the focus of many of the drills. Example: "balance". If I hear the word "balance" one more time from the TI camp.... geez, the only way to do the drills in the Stanford series was to BE BALANCED ALREADY! TI went the step further to mention the importance of balance because it caters towards novice (or non) swimmers looking to learn some fundamentals to enable them to become effective lap swimmers.
I'm not interested in effective lap swimming. You want a workout in the water? Don't learn TI, you'll probably burn 1/2 the calories in a 45 minute workout after learning TI than you did when you were a "thrasher".
I've never said TI is wrong, I've simply disagreed with the TI camp's approach and attitude. I've even said I think it is a great learn-to-swim video package, an excellent drillset for age-group swimmers. I want to hear about coaching swimmers to swim FAST. Some elements of TI are necessary, in fact many are. But a coach can't stop there. TI should be incorporated as part of the larger program. Each swimmer is different. There will be swimmers who swim faster outside the paradigm of TI than they will being strictly coached "TI".
I'm finished on this thread unless a response compels me to respond. Anyway, it's becoming too difficult to navigate through half the posts that should really be their own discussion. Or just not in a discussion at all. :rolleyes:
-RM
Quote:
"Also found the race analysis system for The 9th FINA World Swimming Championships FUKUOKA 2001. I took the men's 100 Free, and made two groups: the eight finalists versus the 16 semi-finalists. As a group, the eight finalists had longer stroke length AND shorter stroke frequency than the semifinalists. Next, I divided them into three groups: six in A (under 49 sec), seven in B (between 49.0 - 49.5), and ten in C (between 49.5 - 50.0). Group B had the lowest stroke frequency, C the highest, so SR is muddled. However, for stroke length A had the longest, while C had the shortest, so SL has a strong correlation with speed."
Mattson- Impressive research, however I believe this logic to be flawed. Are they faster because of their greater SL, or is their SL greater because they are faster. Now that may not make enough sense but what I mean is OF COURSE THE FASTEST SWIMMERS HAVE A BETTER SL!!! They are the faster swimmers! Now what I would argue is take two swimmers of equal talent (i.e. Bennett/Munz) and compare them. It shows that differing styles can be equally fast.
Breaststroke pullout research at UB was a great piece. Too many people sacrifice speed for distance in their pullouts. Again, the main issue there is to find the point at which you are the fastest. It takes coaches with stopwatches and a lot of practice. I guarantee that unless you do the research for an individual swimmer to find what is best, their pullouts will be hurting them in a breaststroke race.
Wayne- We might actually agree on something :D If I read your post correctly, you seem to prefer the grab start over the track start. As do I. We may like the grab start for differing reasons, but I don't see how a start that puts you in the water sooner and at a flatter angle with a 1-foot pushoff from the block is a faster start. JMHO.
Finally... Mattson... my core technique ideas that are taught by TI that are merely a glitzy re-packaging of what has been taught all along... 1) Streamlined body position is faster. 2) Good technique is the most important aspect of swimming fast.
The Stanford series put out back in the late 80's/early 90's had many of the same drills that are on the TI videos. TI has renamed them and chosen to re-word the focus of many of the drills. Example: "balance". If I hear the word "balance" one more time from the TI camp.... geez, the only way to do the drills in the Stanford series was to BE BALANCED ALREADY! TI went the step further to mention the importance of balance because it caters towards novice (or non) swimmers looking to learn some fundamentals to enable them to become effective lap swimmers.
I'm not interested in effective lap swimming. You want a workout in the water? Don't learn TI, you'll probably burn 1/2 the calories in a 45 minute workout after learning TI than you did when you were a "thrasher".
I've never said TI is wrong, I've simply disagreed with the TI camp's approach and attitude. I've even said I think it is a great learn-to-swim video package, an excellent drillset for age-group swimmers. I want to hear about coaching swimmers to swim FAST. Some elements of TI are necessary, in fact many are. But a coach can't stop there. TI should be incorporated as part of the larger program. Each swimmer is different. There will be swimmers who swim faster outside the paradigm of TI than they will being strictly coached "TI".
I'm finished on this thread unless a response compels me to respond. Anyway, it's becoming too difficult to navigate through half the posts that should really be their own discussion. Or just not in a discussion at all. :rolleyes:
-RM
