Now that I've gone through the hassle of signing up as a member of this dicussion group, this gets more and more fun. Maybe I'll get fired from my job :)
Anyway... I'm sure that ALL Masters level swimmers have heard of Total Immersion (from now on referred to as TI) swimming, correct? What are everyone's opinions about TI swimming? I am most curious because as a coach of age group swimmers, I was looking for training videos for our kids. I happened upon TI and liked what I saw... at first.
Here's some background for my experience with TI... very well put together, most of what they teach has been in existence for some time anyway, and they certainly are good for teaching novice/beginner swimmers the basic technique for swimming.
However, when looking to swim fast, and I mean fast, not lap swim quality, but truly competitively, I thing TI has missed to boat completely. Yes, smooth and efficient swimming is nice, but did anyone see the NCAA's? There are 20 year old men swimming 9 strokes per length in breaststroke! We have a number of age group coaches in my area teaching their kids how to swim breaststroke at 6 or 7 strokes a length!!! What gives? Extended glide is one thing, but when you slow down your stroke to such an extent just to achieve long and fluid strokes you sacrifice speed tremendously.
Hey, if you can swim 9 strokes a length at 1 second per stroke that is WAY better than 6 strokes a length at 2 seconds per stroke. Simple math.
Anthony Ervin of Cal swam the 100 free in the follwing SPL... 12 (start)/15/16/16. I could be off but that's what I was able to get from the (ahem- PALTRY) ESPN coverage. Now TI has goal SPL's of 12/13! Hello, if the BEST sprinter in history takes 8 cycles, shouldn't that tell us something? Turnover is very important. Same with streamlining, yes streamlines are nice and quite important but A.E. pops up after 5 yards MAX out of each turn. You only serve yourself well if your streamline is faster than you can swim, most age group swimmers would be well-served to explode out of the turn and swim within 3-4 yards.
Alas, it's been a slow day finishing my work for the week. Just looking to start a nice discussion. It's been my experience that a lot of Masters level swimmers are also engaged in coaching age group swimming at some level, and therefore I feel we can get some good dialogue going on this issue.
Now I've just used TI as an example because that's what I've had my experience with, but more general is what keys do you all stress when trying to mold competitive swimmers?
Au revoir,
-Rain Man
Parents
Former Member
Originally posted by mattson
I disagree with almost everything Ion has said.
:rolleyes:
First off, you mentioned pg 47, where the book talks about keeping the hand in front longer. YOU used the word "pause", which I think it wrong.
The hand is in front doing two things: active streamlining (while the other arm is pulling), and "catching" the water (to get a powerful stroke). If all you are doing is letting your hand hang in front, no wonder you did not see any improvement.
...
Mark, keep doing "...:rolleyes...", toward the book:
in page 48, it says "Enter, e-x-t-e-n-d, pause and pull.", doesn't it?
'pause' means: pause.
Thus a slower rate.
"...active stramlining..." and "..."catching" the water (to get a powerful stroke)..." during the pause, are undefined by you but talked about.
Popov doing 28 strokes in workout, so 34 in race is misinformed:
Popov races what he is training at, which is 31 strokes; he also trains with lots of 'Explosive Speed Training' bursts at more than 31 strokes prorated to 15 meters sprints, with more than 100% of the energy of a 50 meters sprint.
His coach, Touretski, makes him doing these repeats of dive and 15 meters sprints, with a work to rest ratio of 1 to 4.
'Explosive Speed Training' is not practiced in USMS workouts.
Originally posted by mattson
...
The goal is not to minimize SR, it is to keep a long SL as you pick up your SR.
...
That's why the thread 'TI advice: length vs rate' has posts (by Paul for example) recommending to swim at race speed in workouts at least once per week, unlike the TI book advising to train mainly slow and cute.
Originally posted by mattson
...
pg 30: "As you begin to approach the upper limits of how quickly you can move your arms, you can usually speed them up even more only by decreasing your stroke length... Increase one and decrease the other by the same amount and your product - velocity - doesn't budge."
pg 33: "First, you have to learn how to position your body so it moves as far as it possibly can with each stroke (SL); then you have to get fit enough to take those strokes at a high rate (SR)... They always make their most dramatic improvements when they give up a bit of their SR in order to gain a lot of SL."
Reducing your SR is *NOT* the same as TI. Laughlin states this quite clearly on pg. 107: "It's possible to get too carried away with this business of eliminating strokes when you're down to such a triumphantly tiny number of strokes that you're taking forever to get to the other end."
...
The problem I have with TI is that it emphasizes an elusive increase in stroke length:
"Tell me which part of the swimming-speed equation you'd rather work on...", is asked in page 33.
In page 33, it also states:
"SR is training-oriented. You have to work hard to build up your muscles and energy system..", which I agree with, but is missing from the book.
Another book I have, deals with technique, five types of training, cross training, nutrition, taper and race tips.
That's better, more complete.
Originally posted by mattson
...
You talked about the hundreds of people in this thread; I doubt that there are even twenty people posting in this thread,
...
No, I talked about how training is reported in this thread to apply to hundreds of swimmers.
I have in mind age-group kids, coached by age-group coaches as reported in this thread.
I communicated well this.
Originally posted by mattson
...
and the views have been varied. You have failed to address pg 31. Studies from the 1984 US Olympic Swimming Trials and the 1988 Olympics: "Over and over, what they found was that long event or short, the fastest swimmers took the fewest strokes."
...
That's not the case of Anthony Ervin.
That's not the case of the people in the thread 'TI advice: length vs rate', like Bill White.
That's not my case when I swam faster than in 2002.
Originally posted by mattson
...
In fact, the world's top researchers estimate that champion swimmers owe about 70 percent of their great performance to perfect stroke mechanics and only around 30 percent to their fitness..."
...
It's an unfounded claim.
"You have to work hard to build up your muscles..." as mentioned in page 33 of the TI book, requires more than 30% for maintenance and development, since it is volatile if one doesn't train it.
van den Hoogenband in my post above emphasizes this in 2001 World Championships, and many others emphasize it too.
It is also my experience.
Originally posted by mattson
...
You also state that TI discredits kicking with a board, pulling with paddles, and dryland training.
For kicking with a board, yeah he doesn't like them. But are boards *necessary* to get a good (or better) kicking workout? On pg 197, he suggests using fins instead of boards for the kicking sets. (Myself, I like boards, because they stretch out my lats.)
On pg 199, Laughlin seems fine with paddles: "... you can get a fine (aerobic workout) wearing buoys and paddles." "...Add paddles to your hands and a tube around your ankles to the buoy between your legs. That will both increase the resistance and add some muscle to your pull." (versus using a pull buoy alone)
He also seems to support dryland training. The only caveat was on pg 220. "(In the early stages of a swimming-strength-training program that you may be starting, use) your own body for resistance - bodyweight exercises."
pg 222
"Eventually, of course, your muscles will need more than bodyweight to continue growing stronger... begin mixing in... free weights or machines in equal amounts."
...
Kicking with a board is wide spread, over fins.
Popov is doing it, I saw Jenny Thompson doing it every day I saw her workouts when I was with Stanford Masters, Bennett is reportedly doing it, Thorpe, Hackett are doing it, and so on.
I put a tube around my ankles when pulling, that's no breaking ground information regarding pulling with ankles tied.
On the dryland training, TI says in page 201:
"Swim Benches", "My advice is, save your money.".
Another book on swimming, by a faster swimmer than TI's author Laughlin, claims:
"A. Swim 200 yards freestyle at 85 percent to 95 percent effort.
B. Count the strokes on the last lap (e.g., 15).
C. Divide total workout time by the number of laps you swam (2:20 x 8 = about 17 seconds).
D. You should set the machine (i.e. the Swim Bench) for a comparable load. In this example, you would set the load so that you could do approximately 15 strokes in 17 seconds.".
I choose to value the contradictory opinion on Swim Bench, and on many other dry land exercises like Bench Press and Rowing, by the more accomplished swimmer than Terry Laughlin is, over the TI's opinion.
Originally posted by mattson
...
But from the tone of some of your messages, it sounds like you have a vendetta against Laughlin. If you reread Emmett's messages, his concern is that people take a single idea from TI (such as reducing SR during inital practices), misapply it, and think that the entire TI program is garbage. From the misinterpretations and misinformation that you have posted, it would seem that you fall into this category.
I don't think "...the entire TI program is garbage...", but I wrote that I think it is a marketing ploy, with pompous claims like "The Revolutionary Way...".
I wrote this clearly.
Originally posted by mattson
I disagree with almost everything Ion has said.
:rolleyes:
First off, you mentioned pg 47, where the book talks about keeping the hand in front longer. YOU used the word "pause", which I think it wrong.
The hand is in front doing two things: active streamlining (while the other arm is pulling), and "catching" the water (to get a powerful stroke). If all you are doing is letting your hand hang in front, no wonder you did not see any improvement.
...
Mark, keep doing "...:rolleyes...", toward the book:
in page 48, it says "Enter, e-x-t-e-n-d, pause and pull.", doesn't it?
'pause' means: pause.
Thus a slower rate.
"...active stramlining..." and "..."catching" the water (to get a powerful stroke)..." during the pause, are undefined by you but talked about.
Popov doing 28 strokes in workout, so 34 in race is misinformed:
Popov races what he is training at, which is 31 strokes; he also trains with lots of 'Explosive Speed Training' bursts at more than 31 strokes prorated to 15 meters sprints, with more than 100% of the energy of a 50 meters sprint.
His coach, Touretski, makes him doing these repeats of dive and 15 meters sprints, with a work to rest ratio of 1 to 4.
'Explosive Speed Training' is not practiced in USMS workouts.
Originally posted by mattson
...
The goal is not to minimize SR, it is to keep a long SL as you pick up your SR.
...
That's why the thread 'TI advice: length vs rate' has posts (by Paul for example) recommending to swim at race speed in workouts at least once per week, unlike the TI book advising to train mainly slow and cute.
Originally posted by mattson
...
pg 30: "As you begin to approach the upper limits of how quickly you can move your arms, you can usually speed them up even more only by decreasing your stroke length... Increase one and decrease the other by the same amount and your product - velocity - doesn't budge."
pg 33: "First, you have to learn how to position your body so it moves as far as it possibly can with each stroke (SL); then you have to get fit enough to take those strokes at a high rate (SR)... They always make their most dramatic improvements when they give up a bit of their SR in order to gain a lot of SL."
Reducing your SR is *NOT* the same as TI. Laughlin states this quite clearly on pg. 107: "It's possible to get too carried away with this business of eliminating strokes when you're down to such a triumphantly tiny number of strokes that you're taking forever to get to the other end."
...
The problem I have with TI is that it emphasizes an elusive increase in stroke length:
"Tell me which part of the swimming-speed equation you'd rather work on...", is asked in page 33.
In page 33, it also states:
"SR is training-oriented. You have to work hard to build up your muscles and energy system..", which I agree with, but is missing from the book.
Another book I have, deals with technique, five types of training, cross training, nutrition, taper and race tips.
That's better, more complete.
Originally posted by mattson
...
You talked about the hundreds of people in this thread; I doubt that there are even twenty people posting in this thread,
...
No, I talked about how training is reported in this thread to apply to hundreds of swimmers.
I have in mind age-group kids, coached by age-group coaches as reported in this thread.
I communicated well this.
Originally posted by mattson
...
and the views have been varied. You have failed to address pg 31. Studies from the 1984 US Olympic Swimming Trials and the 1988 Olympics: "Over and over, what they found was that long event or short, the fastest swimmers took the fewest strokes."
...
That's not the case of Anthony Ervin.
That's not the case of the people in the thread 'TI advice: length vs rate', like Bill White.
That's not my case when I swam faster than in 2002.
Originally posted by mattson
...
In fact, the world's top researchers estimate that champion swimmers owe about 70 percent of their great performance to perfect stroke mechanics and only around 30 percent to their fitness..."
...
It's an unfounded claim.
"You have to work hard to build up your muscles..." as mentioned in page 33 of the TI book, requires more than 30% for maintenance and development, since it is volatile if one doesn't train it.
van den Hoogenband in my post above emphasizes this in 2001 World Championships, and many others emphasize it too.
It is also my experience.
Originally posted by mattson
...
You also state that TI discredits kicking with a board, pulling with paddles, and dryland training.
For kicking with a board, yeah he doesn't like them. But are boards *necessary* to get a good (or better) kicking workout? On pg 197, he suggests using fins instead of boards for the kicking sets. (Myself, I like boards, because they stretch out my lats.)
On pg 199, Laughlin seems fine with paddles: "... you can get a fine (aerobic workout) wearing buoys and paddles." "...Add paddles to your hands and a tube around your ankles to the buoy between your legs. That will both increase the resistance and add some muscle to your pull." (versus using a pull buoy alone)
He also seems to support dryland training. The only caveat was on pg 220. "(In the early stages of a swimming-strength-training program that you may be starting, use) your own body for resistance - bodyweight exercises."
pg 222
"Eventually, of course, your muscles will need more than bodyweight to continue growing stronger... begin mixing in... free weights or machines in equal amounts."
...
Kicking with a board is wide spread, over fins.
Popov is doing it, I saw Jenny Thompson doing it every day I saw her workouts when I was with Stanford Masters, Bennett is reportedly doing it, Thorpe, Hackett are doing it, and so on.
I put a tube around my ankles when pulling, that's no breaking ground information regarding pulling with ankles tied.
On the dryland training, TI says in page 201:
"Swim Benches", "My advice is, save your money.".
Another book on swimming, by a faster swimmer than TI's author Laughlin, claims:
"A. Swim 200 yards freestyle at 85 percent to 95 percent effort.
B. Count the strokes on the last lap (e.g., 15).
C. Divide total workout time by the number of laps you swam (2:20 x 8 = about 17 seconds).
D. You should set the machine (i.e. the Swim Bench) for a comparable load. In this example, you would set the load so that you could do approximately 15 strokes in 17 seconds.".
I choose to value the contradictory opinion on Swim Bench, and on many other dry land exercises like Bench Press and Rowing, by the more accomplished swimmer than Terry Laughlin is, over the TI's opinion.
Originally posted by mattson
...
But from the tone of some of your messages, it sounds like you have a vendetta against Laughlin. If you reread Emmett's messages, his concern is that people take a single idea from TI (such as reducing SR during inital practices), misapply it, and think that the entire TI program is garbage. From the misinterpretations and misinformation that you have posted, it would seem that you fall into this category.
I don't think "...the entire TI program is garbage...", but I wrote that I think it is a marketing ploy, with pompous claims like "The Revolutionary Way...".
I wrote this clearly.
