Olympian Masters ?

Good heavens, I have not read this thread, and if it causes Donna to leave that really makes me sad. She is an awesome contributor to this forum. When my son was younger one of his swimming buddy's Dad was a silver medalist in the hurdles at the Olympics. This guy is a great guy, we became friends sitting at lots and lots of swim meets. They have an Olympic monument here and when he got his square, I got to see his beautiful medal. I tried to find information about his race on the internet. Well the person who got the gold in his race was someone by the name of Edwin Moses. I watched all of Edwin's races on TV during the Olympics because he was so incredibly amazing. My friend was barely mentioned anywhere and yet the Americans went 1-2 and he was 2. I can say that even though I remember watching Edwin, and had no idea about second place. Goes to show you that media coverage is not always even.

Maybe so Bill. But I still want to give the benefit of the doubt. And not to beat a dead horse...but this article (from a USMS publication) identifies Islandsox as an alternate member of the '68 Olympic team. The Honduran gazette might have a few facts out of place...but not the official magazine. :cry:

Both sides in this argument have been ardent in their convictions. Only one side has been purposefully cruel. I, for one, have no intention of being cruel. I'm just interested in what the story is here and it's at least interesting that Donna doesn't appear in the Trials results. I really don't know with certainty that Olympic teams have been picked solely on Trials results, so that's certainly a possibility. On the other hand I really can't see why anyone would claim to be an Olympian--alternate or otherwise--unless they actually were barring mental illness. Just an example...Our fellow forumite geochuck (from north of the border) relates all of his victories in great detail. There's no reason to doubt his stories about friendships or experiences with some of the greatest names in swimming. And oddly enough, his swimming accomplishments don't appear to have been recorded in documents anywhere on the web. Not true. Take a look at p. 12 in this document which lists all relay medals Canada has won in Commonwealth Games competition: www.swimming.ca/.../Media_Guide_ebook.pdf Since they are relays it only lists his last name, Park, but he's there on three medaling relays in 1954 and 1958. Here's a web page showing several books on marathon swimming and George's name appears a couple times: www.soloswims.com/books.htm

In our little forum here I think regardless of how it comes up it could hopefully be handled...at least initially...via PM. We hope that Donna would understand for the sake of all Olympians people will want to verify...that does not however mean it should in any way be done without respect.... And Jim....I agree that its probably not a good idea to delete threads that are going down hill...but rather close them and leave as a public record for people to revisit and see for themselves what may or may not have been written. This is basically all I was saying, however poorly. In a difficult situation such as this, handling it in some private manner is likely preferable to having a usms historian hijack two threads with accusations and having the top cat publicly weigh in on the accusations here. Plus, then you have some posters apparently salivating over "deception, bad words, and cat fighting." I did not enjoy the "cat fight," and now have a swim meet to go to as I am one of the very few that partake in said activity. Paul: It was Rich/SwimStud that said we should avoid deletion and leave the record intact to avoid a big brother-ish approach. For someone who was an alleged imposter, Donna certainly volunteered to retrieve information, provided name changes, etc. But it was deemed insufficient. Perhaps Olympic coaches or her coach (Don Easterling) could have been contacted. Who knows? Kirk raises a good point about how one qualifies or qualified in the 1960s to be an "alternate."

Since you are throwing names out there, hopefully I can clarify Gail’s role in this. Gail has volunteered (for many many years) to maintain a list of swimming Olympians for the benefit of USMS members on behalf of the USMS History and Archives committee. Gail is a long time Masters swimmer and was a member of the 1952 Olympic team (swimming as Gail Peters). As any good historian, Gail is looking for documentary evidence to be able to include individuals on the official roster of Masters Olympians. It is my understanding that Gail was unable to find and swimmer in question was unable to provide any documentation to support her claim. And there are plenty of sources of Olympic team and Olympic trial swimmers available on the web, through USA Swimming and the USOC. Hopefully the swimmer can produce this documentation and USMS can add her to our list. Until such documentation can be provided I stand behind Gail’s position to deny inclusion on the USMS Olympians roster. I have no idea how Gail’s requests for documentation on behalf of USMS were turned into “outright accusations”. Gail thanks for maintaining this for Masters Swimming! So she's off the roster but we'll give her credit in the USMS periodical? :confused:

Like others in this thread, I am curious as to what the technical definition of an 'alternate' is? Do they still have them? Has the definition changed over time? Are the rules listed somewhere? Since I have not competed in a championship swim meet that uses heats and finals in about 31 years, this may not be accurate any more, but I'll give you all something to start with: The top 8 swimmers in heats were sent to the championship heat. The next 8 were in the consolation finals. The next two or three were labeled alternates in case anyone could not make the final 2 heats. If any one scratched, everyone else (ranked below them) moved up a spot, and an alternate was put into lane 8 of the consols. In the Olympic trials, since there is no consolation heat, the alternates would be the 9-10 spots. That "title" evaporates as soon as the championship heat starts. The word "alternate" is actually in print on the championship heat seeding posted at the meet, but pointless for anything else.

Anyone with a bit of internet know-how would sooner or later uncover information or articles which confirm or deny facts from fiction. Islandsox has been competitively swimming since age eleven, has held several world records in the backstroke, as well as state records, and has been ranked top ten in USMS. She was an ex-Olympian (alternate). I hope she's just taking a vacation for while ...or out for an 18 mile swim. This thread which started out very light hearted somehow turned into the mosh pit during the light of the full moon this past week.

Lastly, do you believe everything you read, or hear? I don't unless I was there. Interestingly, Donna made this exact same point on the following thread: forums.usms.org/showthread.php. On that strictly nsr thread, inexplicably, there was another accustory post by our historian toward Donna, which was also later deleted. I'd be happy to see the films.

I'd say "yes" to that question if there was sufficient supporting material to verify what really happened. :rolleyes: ennnnnywho... :bolt: I believe recently one coach was found to have expunged names from record books......... ahhhhh but that was another topic all together!:dedhorse:

Just an example...Our fellow forumite geochuck (from north of the border) relates all of his victories in great detail. There's no reason to doubt his stories about friendships or experiences with some of the greatest names in swimming. And oddly enough, his swimming accomplishments don't appear to have been recorded in documents anywhere on the web. Just to chime in on behalf of George who was, for sure, an 1956 Olympian (also swam in Commonwealth Games & Pan-Am Games) His POOL performances have been fully recorded in a book on the history of Canadian swimming going back to the first Olympics, written by Jack Kelso (National team member but not Olympian) in the last 8 years or so. I have no idea where/if OPEN WATER results were ever recorded. For Kelso's record as a master swimmer see the FINA site for 200IM 60-64 (he was the world record holder until recently) www.fina.org/.../tabs_SC_all.pdf The problem, of course, when you are talking 1950's and 60's is that there was no Internet (even today not all is recorded). Generally only medal winners have been recorded. I have to commend Walt Reid at FINA for getting the masters times going back to 1986 onto their site . I have always felt the Olympic Games people need to get off their butts and put historical heats, semis and finals from every games on the web. I don't know what their problem is. Ian. Like others in this thread, I am curious as to what the technical definition of an 'alternate' is? Do they still have them? Has the definition changed over time? Are the rules listed somewhere?