Breastroke kick used in butterfly

Time for a pure butterfly affectionato to weigh in. (pun intended) ! I only have one stroke to give to my sport. In the early 50's, the dolphin kick was just becoming known. My coach and I learned it out of a book, the "Swimming Times" of Great Britain. One of my team-mates and I would race a 100 fly every Monday, for time trials. Every time he would catch me in the last 10 yards and I still remember the sound of that dreaded frog-kick catching up with me. But one time I failed to die at the end and that was the last time trial for him. He was also the last frogger to ever beat me. So; what is the point ? I feel that as long as the rules allow, and as long as the poor froggers cannot beat real butterfly, what's to lose ? Seriously, the frog kick should be grandfathered out. The only question in my mind, brought to my attention by my ***-friend, Peter Cruise, is at what age should we require the purification of the stroke ? Over to you.......................:p

Steve, Even in USA Swimming we make allowances for those with physical disabilities, and the rules do say that they can start a race other than from the block. What I am talking about is the one instance where there is an essential change in the form of a stroke that has outlived it's need. Masters Swimming has grown considerably since it began and the abilities of the competitors is reflected by that growth. It's time to change this one rule, maybe as Bert says, by grandfathering it over time to allow for everyone to become accustomed to the idea. There is a difference between using common sense in a situation where you allow relay swimmers to "loiter" in the water when safety must be a concern and what I am talking about which is the accepted form of a distinct stroke as viewed by the rest of the swimming world.

In general, I am in favor of all organizations having the same rules for competitive swimming. However, FINA's rules for Masters permit the breaststroke kick in butterfly and I think that we should follow their rules unless there is a compelling reason to differ. Since it was only last summer that FINA banned breaststroke kick in butterfly for kids I suspect it will take some time before they do so for masters. I feel that people who think that breasstroke kick should direct their efforts to changing the FINA rules first and then we can make to same change to our rules. Steve: FINA rules permit Masters to start on the blocks, on the deck, or in the water (MSW 3.2). FINA rules also permit swimmers to remain in their lane until directed by the referee to leave the pool (MSW 3.5). USMS rules do not differ from FINA rules in either case.

Thoseof us in the + 55 age groups probably learned the fly with the frog kick before changing over to the dolphin kick. As we get older. it gets tougher to compete a 200 fly entirely with dolphin kick, pull ourselves out of the pool after our leg of an relay, or even start from the blocks due to many factors. Please do not change the butterfly rule. I want to be able to swim fly when I reach the older age groups!

Winnie wrote: Those of us in the + 55 age groups probably learned the fly with the frog kick before changing over to the dolphin kick. As we get older. it gets tougher to compete a 200 fly entirely with dolphin kick, pull ourselves out of the pool after our leg of an relay, or even start from the blocks due to many factors. Please do not change the butterfly rule. I want to be able to swim fly when I reach the older age groups! I am in the 65-69 age group, so fly was done with a frog kick when I was in my teens. I always thought that fly with a frog kick was extremely awkward - the frog kick doesn't lift you out of the water to breathe the way a properly executed dolphin kick does - at least frog kick didn't work for me in fly, so I didn't do butterfly much in my younger years. I love doing fly with the dolphin kick - it's more graceful, and I don't sink down with each kick like I can remember doing in the old days with the frog kick. And yes, I am proud to say that I do the 200 fly - did my first 200 fly just a couple of years ago and have managed to improve on my time in both the 100 and the 200 since then. So, yes, older age group folks can do fly with the dolphin kick. As for changing the rules, I don't care one way or the other - I think that doing dolphin kick is the faster way to go, and if somebody can swim faster with a frog kick, more power to them.

This is a old thread. Most of the master swimmers who use breastroke kick in the butterfly are probably from the 1950's and 1960's generation in AAU or school swimming, when this was legal. I remember in 1969 that the novice meets allow you to do this. AAU did'n't allowed for this. For someone who did both breastroke and butterfly as their top strokes as a teenager and young adult, I don't see the advantage. I even have a faster breastroke kick than a dolphin kick, but the breastroke kick makes it difficult to swim with a fly pull. If few older master swimmers who grew up under the old system, want to use breastroke kick then that's their decision, and I don't see why masters has to have the same rules as USA Swimming on this, since some master swimmers swam as children and young adults before 1960.

Butterfly with a breaststroke kick, interesting concept but to me seems it would be a bit awkward. As a flier, it seems trying to integrate the *** stroke kick would throw off all the rythm and timing of the stroke. The butterfly is a beautiful stroke, and the fly kick is not really a kick but just the natural movement of the legs from the torso. Doing the *** stroke kick with fly would seem to me exerting much more energy and effort than needed.

Have you ever tried the Butterfly with the Breaststroke kick? Believe me, it may sound awkward. But as a 200m flier, I find using the breaststroke kick is the answer for me. I was never taught swimming as a child, however could swim. So when it came to the fly kick. I did try it but with dismal results. I am faster over the 200 fly by 20 seconds when using the breaststroke kick. I'm not saying it's ideal for the 50m sprint though as it is difficult to do an all out sprint using the breaststroke kick. Try it, you may be surprised. Good luck.:p

Always a pleasure to see an old thread restart! Despite years of diligent effort, my dolphin kick doesn't. Using breastroke kick is my only hope for 50m+. Now I think I'll exit before all the outraged butterfly purists vent their spleen (try to envision that). Breastroke is for lovers...butterfly is for...Bert!

I swam back in the 50s when fly had the frog kick. This always seemed real awkward to me, and I never did much fly. For a long time my fly with dolphin kick was quite exhausting - I seemed to sink every time I breathed, which is a real bummer. I could get by with double breathing for a 50, but this didn't work for anything longer. A few years ago I finally got a coach who changed the timing of my kick in the fly, got me to do a proper arm pull, and gave me some drills so I could feel the undulation. It has begun to all come together, and I actually like to do fly with the dolphin kick - it just seems to flow when you get that undulation going.