Reasonable seed times

In Oregon, we call this "sandbagging". It is a very selfish and rude attempt to get rest or calm water. We tell people not to do this on the entry form. If someone persists, we talk to them. If that doesn't work, we send Vinnie around to break their legs. I have been guilty of this early on, only because I didn't realize that it was hard on other people. Always inform politely before stronger methods are employed. Swim fair, people !

We Masters swimmers pride ourselves in being inclusive. Why not allow the swimmer to do this? Does it really harm the other swimmers, I doubt it. Many times that first heat of the 400 IM will have one, maybe two swimmers who take ten to twelve minutes to complete their 400 swim. You must remember many LMScs do not have a lot of swim meets, the swimmer may not get another chance to swim the 400 IM. We are not here to satisfy a meet host, we provide the meets for the swimmers. So let them swim. It is the same with people entering a slower time at Nationals, it is up to the swimmer, we are not police. This is adult swimming, if an age group swimmer doen't submit proof of a time, they don't get to swim. We are not that way, and that is a good thing. I know that at many meets, there is no 200 breaststroke, so we swim our 200 *** during the 200 freestyle event. Is that harmfull, NO. But to do a good 200 *** or 200 fly at nationals you must swim three or more 200 races before Nationals. The only way to do that is during the free events. Bottom line that is why we do not have a rule against this. Wayne McCauley

This doesn't really belong under this thread but anyway: Hi Gail I have question for you! Someone told me that they heard that you started swimming competitively at 18 years old and made Olympics a couple years later... is this actually true? :eek: I'm asking because my goal is to reach that level but I only started swimming when I was almost 17 and I just turned 18 recently. Thank you!

I began swimming in the Delaware River during the summer, just for fun, when I was young. In high school I was on the girls team, but we weren't allowed to do laps and our three meets were for form only. We received points as in diving. I graduated from HS and continued in open AAU state events as I only wanted to win the state 50 yd free Junior event, which I won on my 18th birthday. After that, things just accelerated..... No Wayne, I would not swim the 200 fly in a 200 free race, I did it once and realized it was rude to the other swimmers. There is no reason you can't prepare correctly in practice for a 200 fly without racing it in a meet.

Rude? How is that rude? Rude would be to purposely not shake the hand of the person next to you behind the blocks when they offer theirs and say "good luck". Rude would be to taunt and/or trash talk a follow swimmer after you beat them. (Fortunately a basketball game has never broken out in a Masters meet). Rude would be to spit in a competitor's lane before the start of a race (remember Amy?). However swimming the fly (or any other stroke) in any free event is not rude. It is legal and it says so in the rules (101.5.2 In an event designated freestyle, the swimmer may swim any style…).

Originally posted by Steve Rude would be to spit in a competitor's lane before the start of a race (remember Amy?). LOL!! :cool: :p

Rude, in my opinion, is not telling those in your heat that you are going all out for a split time in your race (for instance, going for a 100 free time in your 200 free). Are you obligated to inform anybody? Of course not. Should other swimmers be swimming their own races? Yes. But as a courtesy it is much appreciated when these swimmers let others know their intentions. Jeff

I know that when my daughter, swimming USS, was trying to get her junior national 100 backstroke cut during the first half of the 200 back, she had to notify the starter and the swimmers in the lanes immediately beside her. I cannot quote the rule. Also, recently, I read on the Chicago Tribune Prep Swimming Bulletin Board that a swimmer who had swum a 1:50 in the 200 free in his prelims, was DQ'd for unsportsmanlike conduct in the finals for swimming a 2:07. The real penalty was that he was not allowed to swim on a relay later that evening - the relay that he was "resting" for. He essentially was keeping someone else from finals that could have taken his place. I realize this is pretty much the opposite of what this thread started out to be, but I thought I would just throw it in. Personally, I think as Masters, we have to be adult enough to be flexible. Most of the time, we do not swim against the competition of our age group anyway. The only time we really get to is at Nationals. If someone wants to put in a slow time for a 500 free so that he/she can get some rest before the next event, then so be it. There is no physical impact to the other lanes of swimmers. When meets do not have enough people to support resting between the events you want to swim, then you gotta do what you gotta do.

There are a couple of things to point out: (1) For Nationals, the clerk of the course may change a sandbaggers time (see 104.5.5A (11) If a swimmer enteres a deck seeded event with a time significantly slower than his/her recently recorded time, the meet director may, after notifying the swimmer, change the seeded time to a realistic time. (2) for those of us on the west coast (and I am sure the "new center of Masters racing" ;-) will find out) trying to keep meet managable is a concern for meet management. Pacific Masters championships will start at 9 am and it is not unusual to be still swimming at 6:30 or later that evening. It is important for the time line that a realistic time for each splash be given. A person who writes down a 15:00 500 free then has a 5:00 swim has just lengthed the meet. (the 5:00 swimmer took the spot of the 9:00 swimmer who should be in the first heat, it works it way down). Yes it is unsportsmanlike conduct. The swimmer for his own selfish reasons has just lengthed the meet for all the officials and the rest of the swimmers. We try to put the seed the swimmers in the correct heat. There have been many times when a swimmer put the 100 time in the 200 race. Hopefully those are caught before the heat is seeded. In the freestyle the swimmer can swim any stroke the swimmer would like to swim. If the swimmer wants to swim the 200 breaststroke in the 200 free. The swimmer should go for it. I agree with Wayne, race conditions are not the same as practice no matter how we want it to be. If a freestyle swimmer is being passed by the breaststroke swimmer, what does the freestyle swimmer have to be upset about? Gee the breaststroke is a better swimmer than me? Lets get realistic about our own strokes and times. Yes we want to swim faster and to swim our best, but we also have to be aware of our own times. (and of course maybe a goal for the freestyle swimmer being passed is to beat the time of the breaststroke who beat him in that heat). Rick and Bob, I would suggest that the "new center of Masters racing" add a rule like 105.5.5A (11) to the NEM Guide to Operations. michael

Originally posted by Nate I know that when my daughter, swimming USS, was trying to get her junior national 100 backstroke cut during the first half of the 200 back, she had to notify the starter and the swimmers in the lanes immediately beside her. I cannot quote the rule. USMS has a similar rule. It's 103.13.1, and it says your split in a longer race can count as an official time if you notify the meet referee, before the end of the meet, that you want your split to count. For backstroke and relay lead-off splits, though, you have to notify the referee BEFORE you swim the event. This is so the officials can verify that you do a legal finish at the split distance, and if they don't know in advance to look for this then they can't attest that you touched while on your back at the 100 split of your 200 back. Also, for your relay split to count, your relay can't be disqualified. I guess this is to prevent someone from swimming just the 50 back in a 200 medley relay, with no other teammates and no intention of actually competing in the relay race. The notification has to be in writing, and your best bet is to get a form from the meet director well before your event. There's no requirement that you have to notify the other swimmers in the heat that you're going for an initial split, but sometimes the starter will announce this before starting the race. Meg Smath Editor, Rule Book