Reasonable seed times

Wayne, what makes you think it doesn't affect the swimmers in heat one when some fast swimmer enters a NT or slow time? As someone who has moved backward thru the years to heat one, I have a different perspective. New, slow swimmers in heat one are made to feel awful by someone lapping them. The older age groups all feel that way, just you wait until you're in heat one and not by choice. Swimming breaststroke in a freestyle heat also makes everyone else feel badly. They think, "Here I am swimming my guts out in the 200 free and he's some guy swimming breaststroke keeping up with me, I must be terribly slow". Give us a break. Swim your 200's *** in practice like everyone else. If it's"not the same" as doing it in a meet, you need to focus more.

I think the issue raised by Rick's hypothetical is whether a swimmer is "acting in an unsportmanslike manner" by entering a bogus seed time. This is totally unrelated to swimmers who elect to swim "stroke" in freestyle events but still enter a realistic seed time for that stroke. I've rarely if ever heard anyone complain about that kind of situation. I share Rick's concern about this kind of situation NOT because I want to police seed times BUT I do want to strive for a competitive race for every swimmer within the obvious limits. In other words, I agree that swimmers should be discouraged from entering such bogus seed times on the grounds that it is unsportmanslike Wayne says that we don't have rules against this practice. Strictly speaking he is correct. However, Section 102.15.3 does give the meet referee the power to penalize or disqualify "any swimmer who acts in an unpsportmanlike or unsafe manner" so it is not entirely out of the realm of possiblity that a swimmer could be DQ for such behavior. .

I'll re-chime in here.... Personally, my concern isn't really of the 200 fly being swum during the 200 free. That happens, and it _is_ freestyle. And especially if the seed time is representative, I see that as an OK thing. Also, adjusting seed times a bit because you aren't in good shape, etc... I find that _responsible_ rather than irresponsible. You're doing your part to out yourself in "the right heat". If you're wrong (you swim better than you expected), fine. But I would still applaud you for having the good honest intent. For me, true sandbagging is just as bad as the opposite. Consider the complete reverse situation. It's the 50 free. You're seeded 9th in the event. So (8 lane pool), you're fastest person in the second-fastest heat. You don't get to swim against the fast guys in the fastest heat. Then you watch the fastest heat, and find out that the top seed is some bozo who was playing around and seeded himself at a 19.99 for kicks. In reality, he's someone who finishes in 35 seconds. There was no way this person would have ever gone 19.9 in the 50. He just wanted to be in the fastest heat, because he was in the previous event, and wanted as much time between swims. And because of the bogus seed time, you (the 9th seed) lost the opportunity to swim in the fastest seeded heat. Is this fair? Personally, I don't think so. Note also there are plenty of other swimming contexts (I know! not masters!) where at championship meets, you are _required_ to enter with your best times for the qualifying period. I don't want to police times. I know masters swimming is different. And I'm interested to read the different opinions expressed here. That's why I posted the scenario. I also think it's pretty clear that there's no strict rule against this. And as much as maybe I'd like to, you'd be hard pressed to actually get a meet referee to invole the "unsportsmanlike conduct" clause for something like this. So to those who only say "Since it's not illegal, it's legal", well, that's not what I'm after. The question is do you think it _should_ be allowed or not allowed. -Rick

Another follow-up -- I'll point out that a similar situation did arise at a meet I ran last year (a meet with 500+ masters swimmers). We were running the 1650 and 1000 freestyle on Friday evening. We were deck-seeding between two competition courses. There was an administrative screw up, and someone wasn't seeded in the fast heat. The fast heats had already gone, so we had no choice but to put a faster person (someone who would have been either fastest or second-fastest heat) in the slowest heat in an empty lane. I think we even put an empty lane between. However, we did have a couple of complaints from other people in that slowest heat that we put the fast person in with them. They didn't like being lapped 10 times in the event. -Rick

I weigh in with Wayne on this one. If it is not against the rules, it is legal. I do not do this, but I have no problem with other swimmers doing this. In some instances I have entered higher times for a specific event that I was not confident in my conditioning...or better put...how my conditioning would hold up after swimming other events. Thus, I entered a higher time for a specific event. Did that make me a sandbagger? Gosh, I hope not. It was not my intent.

I think there is a lot of room for sandbagging, because I don't think it should matter so much who is next to you. I know it does matter some, but here is the other side of the coin: Imagine entering the 400 IM in a local meet in under 5:00 and being placed in a heat where people are legitimately seeded at over 12:00. No one is sandbagging, but it has an undesired result. This is what the rules say to do. My point is that there is no rule against vastly different times in the same heat.

Gail, I am not being a wise guy here. I always thought that freestyle was just that...free to swim whatever stroke you chose to swim. My limited understanding of the rules (please correct me if I am wrong) say that a swimmer may swim any stroke they chose to swim in a freestyle event. BUT, once that swimmer begins the race using a specific stroke, they must continue with that stroke and cannot change to any other stroke.

This is done all the time. It is no big deal. Even if there was a rule against it, what are they going to do? DQ you? Ouch, that's going to hurt (no ribbon for you!). Are you bothered by a fast swimmer who is deck entered and gets put in the slow heat (as many meets do)? It's all the same.

No, Tom. In a freestyle event, you may swim any or all strokes, one stroke or mix them up if you prefer. And I agree that there should be no rule forbidding this. I'm going to my first meet in five years this weekend and can only go on Sunday, however I would have liked to try the 200 fly which is on Saturday. The 200 free is on Sunday and I thought about entering the 200 free with a seed time for a 200 fly. I've reconsidered though and decided that I'm just not ready for a 200 fly, but there is no legal reason for me to not have done so. As for sandbagging, I have entered times that are slower than I think I can go, just for the reason mentioned above, that I'm really not confident, having not been a meet in over five years. I really don't know what to expect. Sandbagging is done at all levels of swimming as well, especially in the distance events where all but the fastest heat is swum in the preliminary session, and the fastest heat is swum in the evening with finals. A kid who is likely to be in finals in other events may get entered in a 1650 with a slower time to ensure swimming in the morning heats. I've seen this done before and whether it's ethical or not, there's nothing illegal about it. Regarding the bruised psyche of the slower swimmer, I would say that the faster swimmer who sandbags is not doing it to feel good about lapping other swimmers, so the slower ones should not feel bad. They are in Masters swimming for fitness and competition, but one person who may skew the competition a little every once in a while isn't that big a deal.

Gail, You are a great swimmer with lots of records. I can only guess that you have competed in excess of 1000 meets in your lifetime. I just can't believe you would rag on breaststrokers swimming in a free event. We could easily go into the inequities during the last 40+ years, why are there a 50, 100, 200, 400 (500) 1000 and 1650 freestyle and only three breaststroke or butterfly events. So when I swim in a meet that has an award for High points in an age group, the freestyler automatically have a huge advantage. Believe me, any fast (young) swimmer that either through seeding or error gets put in a lane with older swimmers (60+) they are not out there to embarrass you. You are the first person I have ever heard that felt bad about swimming with younger swimmers swimming back, fly or breaststroke. Most people are like me, long before getting on the blocks, I will tell everyone in the heat that I will be swimming fly or breaststroke, so they will not be confused. That is just common courtesy. I cannot tell you how many times I have seen a 200 free race with two lanes swimming free, two back, and two breaststroke. The reason for this is we really, really need racing at this distance. NO amount of workout or "focus" can equal racing. Lets put this from a different perspective. In SPMA a meet provider can run any event they choose. So say every single meet host during the season chooses the 200 free, but not one 200 *** or 200 fly. It can happen. What would you do? Especially if you wanted to do well at Nationals, I think you would enter a 200 free race and swim a 200 fly if that was your goal. Also lets keep in mind that we do have specific rules that are vastly different at Nationals. No 22-year-old man swimming in your women’s 400 freestyle event. That is why we want to be inclusive at local meets. Give everyone a chance. Many your swimmers have a much harder time taking off from work or have a lot of family responsibilities. So they may be only able to swim on one day of a three-day meet. I have been there and done that, as they say. So I want them to be able to swim whatever five events they can get in on that day. And they might have three-four races in a row, so they might "sandbag" one event to get more rest for the next event. Most of our older swimmers are retired, don't have to worry about spending 3-4 days at a swim meet. And when they enter a 44.5 in the 200 fly, do we laugh or embarrass them. No. We offer them a proper heat or let them swim in the fast heat. And they will get a lot more cheers for just finishing than any young guy will ever get. And why do we cheer so loud. Because every one of us whether 19 or 50, want to live and still be competing in that 200 fly when we are older (80 -90-even 100+). Another bottom line, every one of us is in awe of people like Gail Roper, Rita Simonton and other women like that. In SPMA a whole generation of swimmers, both male and female have lived in awe of Frank Piemme. Many swimmers goals were for years one thing, to swim as fast as Frank. They did not care if he was 20, 30, 40, or 50 years older, he is a role model and just equaling his time made them feel great. I will bet that in your association, many younger swimmers feel the same about you. They may never swim as fast as Lara Val, but if they equal your time, they are as fast as someone truly great. Ask around. I will bet you are a goal for many swimmers. Wayne McCauley