500 Fly: worthy challenge or arrogant showboating?

The coach should make the swimmer do the bear crawl up until blisters start to appear.

In terms of the HS incident, I don't really have a strong opinion in the absence of facts (and honestly I don't consider the matter important enough to spare much thought about it). But if we are talking about masters swimmers doing a 500 fly (or 500 back or 500 *** or 500 kick or whatever) instead of a 500 free, I think they are perfectly free to do so without asking for approval from anyone else in their heat. Hopefully they entered a time reflective of their best estimate of what they will do; other than that it isn't really anyone else's business. (If someone is going for a 50 or 100 split -- taking out the race much faster than normal -- then it is courteous to let the rest of the heat know. That is different, IMO, and even then it isn't asking for permission but simply an FYI.) If one starts worrying about the psychological impact of splashing or swimming fast or whatever on the other swimmers in the heat, I think that's a slippery slope. If I enter an event with a realistic time and I'm fast enough to lap others in my heat, should I refrain from doing so b/c of the psychological damage it might cause them? Any of you who object to this 500 fly, did you read all of Chris' post? If you have an issue with sportsmanship or showboating, please solve this dilemma for me: High school meet where I know the opposing team does not have any year round club swimmers. If I challenge myself, I will lap all of them. How embarrasing for them. Should I back off and just win comfortably? But I would clearly be loafing while winning. That would be demeaning and belittling to them and pretentious on my part.

A lot of missing background to this story. I am speculating that this was niether a worthy challenge nor a showboating, but possibly avoiding losing to a fellow classmate in the 500 free when he was the expected favorite (possibly being setup by the coach - the intrigue thickens :agree:).

Honestly? It makes me wonder how empathetic you are. Can you not see how this scenario could be anything other than an opportunity for a swimmer to get a 500 fly time? Bottom line: the coach did not want this kid to swim fly in the 500. It could be for a hundred different reasons. I don't understand how you think you know better than the coach involved... I prefer being stroked or chicked to being lapped (but being chick stroked is worse;)). That's my opinion. Feel free to disagree, but don't dismiss my view as irrelevant when I have plenty of experience on the matter. As a sophomore in HS, a guy swam 500 fly in the lane next to me at a dual meet. I thought that was really cool and hoped I could get in good enough shape to do it too some day. 2 years later I did. In both cases, no one on either team or either coach had any problem with it. I wasn't very good in college. I sat out 2 years with injuries but had plenty of experience with speed disparities. There were times it was a challenge for my free to keep up with a backstroker who was top 3 in both backstrokes NCAA D1 the previous year, or 2 guys who were Olympic Trials finalists in the 200 fly. We didn't train with the women's team much, but keeping up with the WR holder in the women's 200 free at the time could be a challenge. The reigning Olympic Bronze medalist in the women's 200 fly could make my free look bad in shorter distances (yep, I've been chick stroked). My last year, I was regularly getting lapped by the men's Olympic Gold medalist in the 1500 and the O record holder in the 400 free (2 different guys). Anyway, that's my perspective. In defense of those who disagree with me, the Starter I mentioned in the first post is one of the nicest people I've ever known (team mate for the last Trans-Tahoe & in my car pool for Nationals next month) . He never gets bother by anything but was definitely irritated by this incident.

Follow up: one of the offending kid's teammates just stopped by to pick up one of my daughters. He told me the coach immediately texted the kid's father. The father was at NCAA D1 with his older son who swam 3 individual events. Coach: long, long ranting message about the 500 fly. Father: Did he win? Coach: no, he was 3rd Father: :sad: end of conversation.

If you have an issue with sportsmanship or showboating, please solve this dilemma for me: High school meet where I know the opposing team does not have any year round club swimmers. If I challenge myself, I will lap all of them. How embarrasing for them. Should I back off and just win comfortably? But I would clearly be loafing while winning. That would be demeaning and belittling to them and pretentious on my part. Have you tried to think about this from any other perspective than your own as a masters swimmer? If you were a year-round high school swimmer that dove in and crushed another swimmer in a 500 freestyle swimming freestyle no one would say a thing. The other swimmer would know you beat him and swam your fastest. Do you not see how switching to a stroke that other swimmer might not even be able to swim legally for more than a 50 - and crushing him in a 500 free - is demeaning? "Hey, everyone, I don't even have to swim freestyle in this event to compete with these losers!!!" For some schools, the 500 free is the last event filled - meaning that no one wants to swim it and some of the slowest kids often end up having to do it. I don't think you ever swam high school and you presume your masters experience is enough to make a judgement here. Your perspective is limited.

The coach should make the swimmer do the bear crawl up until blisters start to appear. Haha - just read that article last night.

You are 100% wrong. I swam all through high school and college. Now what do you think of my judgement and perspective? Honestly? It makes me wonder how empathetic you are. Can you not see how this scenario could be anything other than an opportunity for a swimmer to get a 500 fly time? Bottom line: the coach did not want this kid to swim fly in the 500. It could be for a hundred different reasons. I don't understand how you think you know better than the coach involved...

If you have an issue with sportsmanship or showboating, please solve this dilemma for me: High school meet where I know the opposing team does not have any year round club swimmers. If I challenge myself, I will lap all of them. How embarrasing for them. Should I back off and just win comfortably? But I would clearly be loafing while winning. That would be demeaning and belittling to them and pretentious on my part. I see a bunch of posts in this thread addressing exactly this "dilemma." They all say, as did the starter who discussed the issue with you, that the consensus among experienced high school coaches and officials is that swimming the 500 using some stroke other than the front crawl is not an acceptable solution but instead crosses the line into arrogant showboating.

Have you tried to think about this from any other perspective than your own as a masters swimmer? If you were a year-round high school swimmer that dove in and crushed another swimmer in a 500 freestyle swimming freestyle no one would say a thing. The other swimmer would know you beat him and swam your fastest. Do you not see how switching to a stroke that other swimmer might not even be able to swim legally for more than a 50 - and crushing him in a 500 free - is demeaning? "Hey, everyone, I don't even have to swim freestyle in this event to compete with these losers!!!" For some schools, the 500 free is the last event filled - meaning that no one wants to swim it and some of the slowest kids often end up having to do it. I don't think you ever swam high school and you presume your masters experience is enough to make a judgement here. Your perspective is limited. You are 100% wrong. I swam all through high school and college. Now what do you think of my judgement and perspective?