Darian Townsend entered a masters meet in Mesa over the weekend and broke five world records in the 25-29 age group. This was Townsend's first masters meet. For those of you who are not familiar with him, Townend is a three-time Olympian and gold medalist from South Africa.
Swimswam.com posted a story about Townend's incredible meet. Here's the link: swimswam.com/.../
I found the comments quite interesting especially this one by "HMMM":
I have no problem with athletes making money off of Masters but why have a separate division called Masters if there are no rules or restrictions? None of the sponsored people you mention in their 50′s are training for Rio are they?. Most people in Masters believe they are swimming against recreational swimmers which is why there is a separate Masters division and those records are set by recreational/retired swimmers. If Phelps remains retired and wants to swim Masters, well there goes a few records in his age group but none of us in our club would have a problem with it. We discussed that very subject this morning after practice and Phelps, like Rowdy Gaines is retired and would welcome him. Many of us have swam against and met Rowdy and it is a true honor to share the pool with him in a Masters meet. But our entire team would have a huge problem if Lochte decides to swim a Masters meet while he is still fully training for the Olympics and blows all the records out of the water. If Lochte swims 12 events, he is going to walk away with 12 records. Why have a separate record book? If he can do that, you might as well just call us all USA swimmers and do away with the Masters division. There are meets where fully training pros swim and they are called Grand Prix’s, Nationals, and Worlds. Call us old fashioned, call us Masters swimmers, but we all think Masters should be separate from the training pros..
So I'm curious what the rest of you think. Should someone like Darian Townend or Ryan Lochte be allowed to swim in masters meets when they are professional swimmers who are training full-time? And maybe "allowed" is a poor choice or word. The bottom line is do you think they have any business swimming masters meets?
I think so far I was the only one in this thread that really gave elites a definition.
Before anyone can vote on if they should be allowed to swim or not (as indicated in the poll, not talking about records, TT etc), there needs to be a universal definition. Otherwise this pool doesn't do anything.
So how do other people define elites? I'd love to hear some more definitions.
To Britt03, I absolutely commend you for going up against the formidable forumites here! You are braver than I as I would simply slink away and hang out at my kid's parent portal or go to flyertalk.com forums and wait for the dust to clear before coming back to the swim forums.
I 100% support your definition of an elite swimmer - for YOU. Given your previous thread about (I think you meant) Martina Moracova? I see where you are coming from.
I define an elite as any registered masters swimmer who has a current season qualifying US national winter cut, or an 18 yr old who makes junior cuts.
I don't think there should be any limitations placed on elites.
Records have to be applied for. That is voluntary on the part of the swimmer. Records are not automatically granted. What would be interesting is whether there is a procedure in place for any other party to object (sorry, I know, I sound like the attorneys I work with here) to a swim in the record application process.
Thank you.
I can imagine those who voted "no" may feel a bit cowed at the moment, but I would still like to hear their point of view. I encourage you to comment and not just vote, especially if you vote "no."
Remember this from page one? When someone did she kinda got jumped on.We can disagree without being disagreeable.
I think the reason some people feel the way they do here is because this swimmer has come here before and complained about the current process. This has happened in the past, now in the present, and will continue in the future unless there is a USMS Rule change defining Elite Swimmers and how they should not be eligible to swim in masters and get records and top tens. This same subject was brought up last year and I have linked the thread and the discussion starts at post 29.
forums.usms.org/showthread.php
From the current poll, I don't know if it would be worth it to try for a USMS Rule change, but we all will have to live with this if there is no change in the future.
What do you mean by this? Slower swimmers might want to have the records?! Slower swimmers might want less competition?
Yeah, this seems weird to me, too. The slower swimmers don't have a chance to set records whether the 'elites' are competing or not. Also the chances of them swimming in the same heat and thus being demolished by an elite are slim. So why would a "slower swimmer" object?
I think it would be interesting to see what slower swimmers think about this. I wonder if they would object to elites coming in first and setting records...
I count as the "slower" swimmer. I will never set a record, and top ten...maybe when there are only 10 in my age group. I think everyone should be able to participate. Watching the super fast swims in person as a Masters swimmer is a highlight. I just think when the "professional" sets a bunch of records, it's not news. They deserve to have it, but I get excited to read about the middle aged, works full time with kids and mortgage guy/gal that is still able to set records. That's news.
I think it would be interesting to see what slower swimmers think about this. I wonder if they would object to elites coming in first and setting records...
I personally don't care who sets what records at any meet. I never will, unless I happen to outlive my competition. But based on family history, that looks doubtful.
On a personal note, I'd avoid any meet where I knew someone of Olympic caliber was present, especially a very small meet with few heats of events. Last year I was in the faster heat (of 2 heats) of the 1500 LCM free and was lapped twice. I'd hate to get lapped in a 200 SCM/SCY event. And my swimming pretty much looks horrible, I'd just feel very intimidated swimming anywhere near a really good swimmer.
The meet on 11/3 that brought this whole thing up was at the pool where my team trains. I hadn't planned to swim, and as it happened I had bronchitis and couldn't have anyway.
But I feel the focus of smaller USMS meets should be on USMS meet swimmers. I love it when I hear that someone is getting up on the blocks for their first ever meet, or that they are swimming their first 400 IM, or 1500m free.
I think the reason some people feel the way they do here is because this swimmer has come here before and complained about the current process. This has happened in the past, now in the present, and will continue in the future unless there is a USMS Rule change defining Elite Swimmers and how they should not be eligible to swim in masters and get records and top tens. This same subject was brought up last year and I have linked the thread and the discussion starts at post 29.
forums.usms.org/showthread.php
From the current poll, I don't know if it would be worth it to try for a USMS Rule change, but we all will have to live with this if there is no change in the future.
to my defense when I had questions about the topic you posted: the preliminary TT were posted. Then, when the final lists came out, they had suddenly added swims from Trials. I was then told that all swimmers at Trials registered with USMS were automatically approached and asked if they wanted their times to count or not. All they had to do is answer to an email with "yes" or "no".
since all this happened "so late in the Game" I think my question in the linked thread was definitely legit and not meant as a complain, rather than a "what just happened" reaction.
We will never have an equal playing field in USMS and no matter what rules are done, changed, bent, broken, etc, somebody will always have something to say. It adds to a great discussion, which in my mind was the purpose of this thread. What bothers me in this entire Forum though is that if one person has a different opinion than the majority, that person is automatically thrown under the bus rather than take different opinions as an invitation to discuss on a level that I would expect from mature people.
