I think USMS should try to follow FINA's lead unless doing so would be inconsistent with our policies or result in injustice. Attempts to compare cheating in the Tour with the acts of Nazi Germany defy logic. I agree with the ban of Lance currently but I would not agree with a lifetime ban of him from USMS. If FINA told us ban his family and friends from tour meets forever because he is such a horrible person that we.should have nothing to do with anyone close to him would we do that. I agree with Butcher the issue is not clear cut.
What ramifications might there have been for USMS (or its members) if Lance had participated in the meet? Might USMS swimmers have been excluded from USAS or FINA meets?
What ramifications might there have been for USMS (or its members) if Lance had participated in the meet? Might USMS swimmers have been excluded from USAS or FINA meets?
it could have been even more significant than that!
in my talks with Rob Butcher friday night and saturday, it was very clear that all options (ie punishments) were on the table if USMS did not abide by FINA.
while some may think that USMS is not under FINA, it was made very adamantly clear this week....you are either under FINA or you are not part of FINA. period. to say this was a week of eye openers is a huge understatement.
how many pool competitors would usms lose if all SCM and LCM times were only valid inside the usa (ie walled off from the world)? what if usa swimmers were not allowed to swim outside the usa? what if any masters swimmers outside the usa had all of their times revoked from meets inside the usa? and from then on not valid as well? what if usms lost all of its fina delegets? we are the only nation with 3. what if we lost our 1 vote in fina? what if all usms fina times were retroactively removed to the LA ban date? how long would these punishments last? would usms get kicked out of usa aquatics? would this action by usms affect usas/diving/synchro/polo as well?
i dont think anyone wants the title of "the person that had usms removed from fina"
usms has a much bigger task in trying everything we can possibly do to keep open water meets alive and well. along with getting adults to swim.
Now for the ultimate thread killer. I feel like using the "yeah, but everyone else was cheating too..." argument is tantamount to "Hitler did lots of good things for Germany." Let's face facts here. Armstrong's cheating, lying and bullying was almost an art form and the man deserves nothing but derision for that. Yet I still don't see why that should disqualify him from competing in masters swimming.
Godwin's Law en.wikipedia.org/.../Godwin's_law
Attempts to compare cheating in the Tour with the acts of Nazi Germany defy logic.
It depends on what you're trying to achieve. :-) (Read the link Allen helpfully supplied.)
Godwin's Law en.wikipedia.org/.../Godwin's_law
Yeah, I was sort of riffing on this:
For example, there is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the *** has automatically lost whatever debate was in progress. This principle is itself frequently referred to as Godwin's law. It is considered poor form to raise such a comparison arbitrarily with the motive of ending the thread. There is a widely recognized corollary that any such ulterior-motive invocation of Godwin's law will be unsuccessful.
Sort of figured this really wouldn't end the thread. :)
How can you call an outright cheater one of the "greatest athletes on the planet?"
If doping is within the acceptable culture of training and competition amongst cyclists they should make it legal. I'm sick of this double-play of the rules and I'm sick of them. Lance Armstrong is a rich man based on lying and cheating; that will always be a LOSER in my eyes. If he is remorseful he should give ALL the money to the Livestrong charity.
Pretty clear that doping in TdF circa 2000 was equivalent to jaywalking during rush hour in Manhattan.
That said, when you belong to an organization and subscribe to its rules, you have to follow its rules, even if you disagree with them. So USMS didn't seem to have a lot of choice.
I really was impressed that Rob Butcher came to the meet at the last minute. He spent most of Saturday in the same spots talking with the people. He had so much patience with everyone and is quite an articulate and personable guy. I agree with most of sunrahs comments about discussions with Rob Butcher. he probably repeated himself hundreds of times to different groups during the past weekend. There's a lot we don't see but in general, but the gist was that everything was on the table (or do I mean taken off the table?) for USMS if they didn't comply with removing Lance from the meet.
I wish ANDE had given an interview!!!!
And after all that, when the heat sheets came out for the 500 (and note you had to manually check in for the distance events) Lance was given a lane after all! I thought it was funny and have kept a copy in my Austin Meets file!
I really was impressed that Rob Butcher came to the meet at the last minute. He spent most of Saturday in the same spots talking with the people. He had so much patience with everyone and is quite an articulate and personable guy. I agree with most of sunrahs comments about discussions with Rob Butcher. he probably repeated himself hundreds of times to different groups during the past weekend. There's a lot we don't see but in general, but the gist was that everything was on the table (or do I mean taken off the table?) for USMS if they didn't comply with removing Lance from the meet.Thank you for sharing this observation!
