Though this topic has received some attention in various threads over the years, it is the dead of winter, and I think that those of us in the Northeast, at least, could do with a little blood boiling to warm up the extremities!
To this end, I am wondering how many of my fellow swimmers have had swim times disallowed ex post facto in USMS sanctioned meets, and if so, for what reason?
As some of you who read my blog may recall, I have had a number of TT-worthy times disallowed for various reasons over the years, ranging from lack of timeliness in submitting the paperwork, to swimming a couple races in the "Open" category.
Recently, I have had my first and only All American swim retroactively yanked, some five weeks after the Top 10 list was officially published. Obviously, this is not as bad as those unfortunate souls who have had World Records declared ineligible for consideration.
Nevertheless, it does sting. I invite you to read the details of my De-All'ing (from my perspective) here: byjimthornton.com/.../
Note: I do not question the right of USMS to have rules more stringent than USA-S and FINA. What I do believe is unfair to us swimmers is when these rules apply to us but not to those in charge of making sure that all the i's are dotted and the t's crossed when they secure sanctions for meets and collect the meet fees. My own AA-rescinded swim was done at Michael Phelps's famous pool, the North Baltimore Aquatics Club, in a meet that had a USMS sanction number. Skip Thompson, who traveled from Michigan to swim in this meet, told me he asked about the pool measurement and was told that it was on file. There were no bulkheads involved. I did not make the mistake of swimming in an "open" event. I feel I did everything right this time!
I also feel that the USMS rule book is so dense and complex that it's hopeless for swimmers to know if they are complying. I feel like the mole in a game of bureaucratic whack-a-mole!
Anyhow, if you have your own examples of TT or All American or even World Record times that were rescinded after the fact, please use this thread to post them!
I don't think anyone expects an unchanging list of rules or policies, just a list of current practices, so they know what to expect in unusual situations. Basically, the transparency mentioned is all any reasonable person should be looking for. I also think educating people about the current policies is a good idea, as long as everyone understands that they are fluid (just like the rules are). Typically, when people have a fuller understanding of what goes into decision making, they tend to appreciate the work that people are putting in to making everything run smoothly.
Even if Rec & Tabs isn't the appropriate place for this to be discussed, I would hope someone would take it up, just to prevent a redo of this situation in a few years. To that end, is 2013 a rules or a legislation year?
So in order:
A list of current practices: The link goes to a webpage with those policies as they stand. I can't speak for the other committees but ours were JUST updated. But I will say that I sometimes come across something and think, "hey that's a committee policy." Or I think something is a rule when actually it is a policy. Sometimes you do things and take them for granted and don't realize the underlying assumptions.
Educating people about policies is tricky. The Guide to Operations for Top 10 Recorders is something like 14 pages long and over the past two years I have done my level best to trim the fat and simplify it. But I am thrilled if Top 10 Recorders know all the important rules and policies, much less the general USMS population. There is a lot of turnover in the position, at any given time maybe 40-50% of them started the job in the past two years. It helps enormously to have someone (Anna Lea Matysek) in the front office who helps out with training and the like.
A fuller understanding of the decision making process is exactly why I'm here. I can definitely understand the frustration -- I've been burned in the past too -- but the people working on this are not ogres and really do their level best. But it is like being an umpire calling balls and strikes with 50,000+ USMS members in the stands who don't necessarily agree on where the strike zone is.
2013 is a legislation year.
Rob, I can find my times listed but nothing about which heat and lane I swam in. This is all that pops up regarding my 100:
Men 60-64 100 Meter Freestyle Finals=========================================================================== Pl Name Age Club Seed Time Final Time Points =========================================================================== 1 Thornton, James 60 1776 1:02.68 1:01.43
www.usms.org/.../heat.php
Just a couple of questions…
What is USSA?
What USSA records have been set there?
Were the records set before or after the walls were resurfaced?
USAS, USA Swimming. I believe the pool is used for USAS meets, I don't know how many records were set there but I think a local kid did set a NR there last year and I think the coaches told me many NR's were set there. I don't know about the walls, but it doesn't matter. If the pool is 2/1000 of an inch short it will be good when filled. If it is 2.5 inches short, it was short before the walls were refinished unless you think that they put 2.5 inches of finish onto the walls.
USAS, USA Swimming. I believe the pool is used for USAS meets, I don't know how many records were set there but I think a local kid did set a NR there last year and I think the coaches told me many NR's were set there. I don't know about the walls, but it doesn't matter. If the pool is 2/1000 of an inch short it will be good when filled. If it is 2.5 inches short, it was short before the walls were refinished unless you think that they put 2.5 inches of finish onto the walls.
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You aren't seriously thinking this can be the basis of a decision? I'm worried you're giving Chris and Rob gray hair!
USAS, USA Swimming. I believe the pool is used for USAS meets, I don't know how many records were set there but I think a local kid did set a NR there last year and I think the coaches told me many NR's were set there. I don't know about the walls, but it doesn't matter. If the pool is 2/1000 of an inch short it will be good when filled. If it is 2.5 inches short, it was short before the walls were refinished unless you think that they put 2.5 inches of finish onto the walls.
USA Swimming does not require a certified pool measurement for NAG (National Age Group records). Only for American Records. What they typically do after an American Record is set is send a surveyor to the pool and measure only the lane(s) from the record swim(s). Once that lane is verified the record is ratified (assuming the rest of the paperwork is in order).
Therefore it doesn't matter how many NAG records have been set in this pool. Michael Phelps never set an American Record in this particular pool so USA Swimming never had any material interest in certifying this pool.
What I find amusing is the number of people who think this pool should be certified since Michael Phelps grew up and trained here. This pool was built in 1930... So the argument of the pool being pristine because he trained there holds no water. Or maybe you could say it is all wet. :D
Jeff
are you serious?
if so, i just broke all of the NR's this morning for both SCY and SCM (oh all of those are WRs as well).
dont bother measuring the pool. it's good. it may *look* to only be 20yds long, but it's legit for both 25 SCY NRs and 25 SCM WRs. Congratulations! But I think you might fall a foul of the "We need fewer rules and more commonsense" proviso. But good job anyway!
You aren't seriously thinking this can be the basis of a decision? I'm worried you're giving Chris and Rob gray hair!My kids took care of that throughout their teenage years.
I believe ...
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I think ...
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You aren't seriously thinking this can be the basis of a decision? I'm worried you're giving Chris and Rob gray hair!
Actually, it is information that should be taken into consideration. If you can recall back to your days of practicing law, matters of common knowledge, or matters that can easily be ascertained, may be noted by the Court at any time, even on appeal! This is a similar situation. Jeff just posted that the NAG records do not require a certification, only AR's or WR's. Is it possible that w/ all the age group records set (I BELIEVE) in that pool that NBAC just assumed the pool was measured? Should we (USMS) not require measurement for Top 10 certification? Should Chris and Bob dye their hair red before it turns gray?
