Orthopaedic doc? Question about T.O.C. & breaststroke

Dr. Gillogly's office. They are the best in the Atlanta area. They have treated my knee, my dad's knees and shoulders and my sister's legs. Dr G is the former Falcon's ortho and I believe did the Thrashers until they moved. www.atlantasportsmedicine.com/.../

Dr. Gillogly's office. They are the best in the Atlanta area. They have treated my knee, my dad's knees and shoulders and my sister's legs. Dr G is the former Falcon's ortho and I believe did the Thrashers until they moved. www.atlantasportsmedicine.com/.../ Thanks 'shark! I just edited my post, because I see how I didn't make myself clear. I no longer need to see a doctor; I have had surgery on one shoulder and was able to rehab the other one well enough to avoid a second surgery. Thankfully, I feel great- most of the time! I am just hoping one of the other Forumites is familiar with both TOS and breaststroke technique; enough to know whether I am on the right track with my thinking about why my arms fatigue so much during the last half of 200 breaststroke. (Forumites, don't even go there about training. Believe me, I am diligently following King Frog's training advice!) It's the only stroke where the arms always stay in front of the shoulders (except for starts and turns). This is a crucial difference to somebody with TOS. An orthopaedist would understand where I am going with this enough to confirm or dispute my theory... Thanks, though! :)

Thanks 'shark! I just edited my post, because I see how I didn't make myself clear. I no longer need to see a doctor; I have had surgery on one shoulder and was able to rehab the other one well enough to avoid a second surgery. Thankfully, I feel great- most of the time! I am just hoping one of the other Forumites is familiar with both TOS and breaststroke technique; enough to know whether I am on the right track with my thinking about why my arms fatigue so much during the last half of 200 breaststroke. (Forumites, don't even go there about training. Believe me, I am diligently following King Frog's training advice!) It's the only stroke where the arms always stay in front of the shoulders (except for starts and turns). This is a crucial difference to somebody with TOS. An orthopaedist would understand where I am going with this enough to confirm or dispute my theory... Thanks, though! :) Oh, got it. My arms get super tired during *** as well. It is a very tough stroke to keep going.

Even without known physiological limitations, with good technique, and great training, the 200 *** kills arms, legs, and lungs. I believe it is the nature of the beast. A total love-hate relationship!

Even without known physiological limitations, with good technique, and great training, the 200 *** kills arms, legs, and lungs. I believe it is the nature of the beast. A total love-hate relationship! Well, yeah, you do have a point... :D But, I have a feeling I am actually going to have an easier time with 400 IM than I have had with 200 breaststroke! :afraid:Changing arm position every 100 yards or meters may make a huge difference for me, rather than keeping my arms out in front of me for all 400.

Changing arm position every 100 yards or meters may make a huge difference for me, rather than keeping my arms out in front of me for all 400. Don't feel too special ;) It's that way for just about everyone too! 400 IM is easier than 200 Fly as well, for that very reason.

Don't feel too special ;) It's that way for just about everyone too! 400 IM is easier than 200 Fly as well, for that very reason. Ok, James, then explain to me why swimming 900 yards of fly today (almost non-stop; I paused at the walls now and then) was easier than racing 200 breaststroke? ;) If I had known it was 900, I would have kept going (I lost count). I felt like I could have gone on and on, but Bruce was getting tired filming me! The arms stay in front of the shoulders at all times in breaststroke; the only stroke where that is the case. For somebody with a history of T.O.S. (not "T.O.C."- ooops!), I really think this is the key. When I swim breaststroke, my arms start shutting down after 100 yards to the point where I lose my strength. I didn't feel that at all, today, while swimming fly. :ohyeah:

Ok, James, then explain to me why swimming 900 yards of fly today (almost non-stop; I paused at the walls now and then) was easier than racing 200 breaststroke? ;) If I had known it was 900, I would have kept going (I lost count). I felt like I could have gone on and on, but Bruce was getting tired filming me! The arms stay in front of the shoulders at all times in breaststroke; the only stroke where that is the case. For somebody with a history of T.O.S. (not "T.O.C."- ooops!), I really think this is the key. When I swim breaststroke, my arms start shutting down after 100 yards to the point where I lose my strength. I didn't feel that at all, today, while swimming fly. :ohyeah: It's more about the effort used to complete the swim, vs. what the swim really was. 900 in 20 minutes really isn't that bad, no matter the stroke. Racing a 200 will take it out of you, because you're actually racing it, giving full effort. That's my theory.

It's more about the effort used to complete the swim, vs. what the swim really was. 900 in 20 minutes really isn't that bad, no matter the stroke. Racing a 200 will take it out of you, because you're actually racing it, giving full effort. That's my theory. Well, even when I don't race 200 breaststroke, it takes a lot more out of me than anything else. I'll have to see what racing 200 fly does to me, so I can compare apples to apples. Unless you have had TOS, it is hard to imagine. At its worst, I had it bilaterally and could not hold my hands up above my shoulders. After a few seconds, they would drop, involuntarily. I could not comb my hair and had to brush my teeth bent over with my arm resting on the counter. The strength and circulation in my arms was extremely poor, because the veins and nerves were compressed at the thoracic outlet. Surgery corrected the left side, however, I never had surgery on the right. Have you ever fallen asleep on your arm and awakened with that numb, weak feeling? Bingo.

:bighug: & :smooch:!!! Bruce, I hope you will accept this sincerely delivered from the bottom of my heart. FINALLY! Somebody who knows TOS and swimming understands what I'm talking about! WoooHOOOOO! :bliss: When I received your PM yesterday, I couldn't believe there was another swimmer out there who not only understood what TOS is, but actually has it. Then, I looked up your rankings and thought, "How in the :censor: did that guy win gold at Nationals with TOS? And, how has he made Top Ten rankings with 7 years of it??" :bow: Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU for taking the time out of your busy schedule to answer my question. It is a huge weight lifted off my TOS shoulders! Yes, surgery was successful on my left side for functioning in life- and, even swimming most of the time, but that pesky 200 breaststroke really baffled me. (Of course, I never hade the right side operated on, so I still have that lovely little first rib over there...) I was really starting to be hard on myself about that event, because my times are so much slower relative to my 50 and 100. But, I wasn't seeing improvement by training it more, except for a lower stroke count; probably due to improvement in my kick. I just hit a wall. Meanwhile, I was improving my non-breaststroke events by training them more. This is why I posted this thread. I really didn't feel I was making an excuse for my poor results; it just seemed like something wasn't right. And, I truly believed the reason wasn't, "You aren't splitting your race correctly." Or, "You aren't properly conditioned..." Or, "You need to train more or better or..." Fill-in-the-blank; I've heard it all! The day I swam 2,000 yards of continuous fly, I could have kept going, if my husband (also "Bruce") hadn't come around to tell me the memory card was full. After our conversation, it wasn't continuous fly anymore. But, I felt I could have continued on. That is when I knew I was really on to something about breaststroke and TOS. Swimming 200 yards of breaststroke with proper technique, even at slower than race pace, is harder for me than that 2,000 fly was! After 75 yards, I start to feel it, and, after 100 yards, it is just ugly. At Dixie Zone Championships, I gave myself permission to sign up for 10 events, none of which are the 200 breaststroke! I'm trying 5 new events, including 200 fly and 400 IM; both of which seem less daunting than racing 200 breaststroke one more time... I will try your suggestions, Bruce. I know exactly what you are referring to and talking about, regarding your dryland experiment. Thanks for the great idea! And, while I'm thinking of it, I'm curious to hear how you developed TOS. Please tell me it wasn't from swimming! :afraid:Because, mine wasn't and I am so thankful I can swim- even if I ultimately give up on 200 breaststroke! Now, I have a test for you and your surgeon to try before your surgery: Clip a pulseometer (I hope I have the name correct) onto your thumb. Raise that upper arm out to the side to shoulder level and bend your elbow so your lower arm is straight up, 90 degrees. Now, open and close your hand, keeping your fingers straight, touching your thumb to your fingers. Continue doing this rapidly as long as you can. Make sure to time it and document your starting and ending pulse rate. Those without TOS can do this for minutes before their arm will tire out and drop. But, Bruce? This is what will happen to you: 1. You will hear the beep from the machine start slowly (one beep per pulse), then increase rapidly when you raise your arm and start opening and closing your hand. The speed will alarm you. 2. You will experience extreme fatigue very quickly and your arm will drop, no matter how much you try not to let that happen. Mind over matter does NOT work with TOS, as you know. This was a test Dr. Braun did on me, preferring the testing technique he pioneered to the gold standard you described that he felt wasn't as accurate, measurable, or definitive (my words, not his; I hope I am correct!) If you have any questions about it, send me a PM and I will give you Dr. Braun's e-mail address. Before my surgery, my arm dropped at an alarmingly quick rate. I don't remember exactly, but it was less than 10 seconds. After my surgery and PT, he retested me and had to tell me to go ahead and stop; I think he was getting bored watching and waiting for my arm to drop... :waiting: :D Best wishes on your surgery in a few weeks! Please let me know how you are; I will be :cheerleader: for you on something far more serious and important than any swim race you will ever swim. And, thanks, again for your thorough explanation; it was an extremely helpful (and validating) post. Cheers! :chug: