How do I train 400 IM without losing sprint speed?

Yikes! I'm out for the day and there are tons of posts awaiting my response! Thanks, everybody! Elaine, I think I've mentioned this to you before but one of my favorite IM training sets is 20 x 50 IM order on :50(1:00 br). Enjoy! Heidi Thanks for the set idea, Heidi! My opinion is you don't really need to do distance IM or stroke sets to do well in the 400 IM, but you need to be getting that aerobic training in somewhere. It's kind of up to you. If you like doing long stroke sets, go for it, but if not you could also just get in a couple good aerobic free sets per week. My team does almost all our aerobic training freestyle with more of a quality emphasis on the stroke and it has not adversely affected my IM times. By my thinking an aerobic set means swimming for at least 30 minutes at a steady pace without much rest. Also, don't go in assuming you need one day to be a distance day and the next day is your sprint day. You can always do an aerobic set and then follow it up with a sprint set in the same workout. And, thanks for your set ideas, too, Kirk! Your continuous freestyle set would be great training for my upcoming 3K and 1K open water swims, on July 14th. :agree: It would serve a two-fold purpose- perfect! As for the aerobic sets followed by sprint sets, this is how my coach designs workouts in my Tues-Thurs. adult program. The workouts always kick my :censor:, so I printed some of them out from my Flog and have continued to swim them on the same days, during our summer break. Thanks for your perspective on this! Anyhow, the 400IM will be the second to last event at the Dixie competition. This is why I plan on signing up for the 400 IM at Zones; it won't impact my core races. I may be tired from my other races that day by the time I get to the 400, but, so what? I can :bed: when I get home. :D This pretty much sums up my entire training philosophy. I will say I've noticed among newer swimmers this tendency to say "I am a sprinter" simply because they haven't put in the aerobic work to discover they are actually pretty good at distance or mid distance. True sprint training is just as grueling as distance training and I see a few who think they are sprinters confuse short racing for short training. The amount of yardage you do is basically irrelevant if it is without a purpose. And, I'm gonna say it and it won't be so nice, but if you are struggling to make NQTs in 50s/100s maybe you aren't truly a sprinter and can explore distance, that which is the most pure form of swimming. I also think that it is fairly hard to be really good at both sprinting and distance. I don't know many 50 swimmers who are also great d swimmers, and vice versa. The faster the swimming, the slower I get. PWB went over to the dark side for a season and had great results but he's not like the rest of us. You bring up some excellent points, Geek. In high school, my coach put me in breaststroke events, because she needed a breaststroker and thought I swam it better than the other strokes. I also liked swimming it the best, so I didn't complain. Fast forward to 2010 and joining USMS, I just figured I would go with what I liked and knew. I assumed I was a sprinter, because my sprint events rank the highest. I made NQT's in 50 breaststroke, missed it in the 100 by 1+, and missed it by heaps in the 200. Swimming mostly on my own and having only a part-time coach is why I turn to the Forumites for additional coaching. This is all great feedback and all worthy of further consideration. And, we actually agree on something here, Geek! I don't know how I would be at longer distance events, because I have trained as a sprinter. (And, yes, each one of my swim workouts has a purpose and they were written by either Allen Stark, Ande, Fort, or my coach.) Hey, Geek... thanks. :D

Worst idea ever for sprinters. I would suggest the reverse if you're going to do both (ugh) in the same workout. Sprint first; otherwise, you'll be too tired for real AFAP work. I was thinking the 400 IM was the 7th event after the 4 x 50, 100 *** and 100 IM. Allen may have the best idea. Work on 400 IM technique and longer slower swimming on your aerobic/recovery days from HIT. You definitely can't do HIT 6x a week. 6x is already a lot of swimming. And if you already tend toward injury, combining HIT and HV could be tricky. Uh-oh... I'm so confused! :afraid: I see now what you meant by 7th event; I completely misunderstood. :blush: I definitely don't do HIT every day. Wednesdays have been long aerobic and drill days and Saturdays are recovery. T-Th are mixed, as I mentioned in my last post. I will have to give this all some thought... Meanwhile, it's time for :turkey:. Back to read the rest of the thread later! :bolt:

You are my 400 IM inspiration, 'shark. After all, it was you who suggested I give it a try! :agree: Aw, thanks. You'll do great!

My opinion is you don't really need to do distance IM or stroke sets to do well in the 400 IM, but you need to be getting that aerobic training in somewhere. It's kind of up to you. If you like doing long stroke sets, go for it, but if not you could also just get in a couple good aerobic free sets per week. My team does almost all our aerobic training freestyle with more of a quality emphasis on the stroke and it has not adversely affected my IM times. By my thinking an aerobic set means swimming for at least 30 minutes at a steady pace without much rest. Also, don't go in assuming you need one day to be a distance day and the next day is your sprint day. You can always do an aerobic set and then follow it up with a sprint set in the same workout. This pretty much sums up my entire training philosophy. I will say I've noticed among newer swimmers this tendency to say "I am a sprinter" simply because they haven't put in the aerobic work to discover they are actually pretty good at distance or mid distance. True sprint training is just as grueling as distance training and I see a few who think they are sprinters confuse short racing for short training. The amount of yardage you do is basically irrelevant if it is without a purpose. And, I'm gonna say it and it won't be so nice, but if you are struggling to make NQTs in 50s/100s maybe you aren't truly a sprinter and can explore distance, that which is the most pure form of swimming. I also think that it is fairly hard to be really good at both sprinting and distance. I don't know many 50 swimmers who are also great d swimmers, and vice versa. The faster the swimming, the slower I get. PWB went over to the dark side for a season and had great results but he's not like the rest of us.

The previous posts are by people that have much more IM experience than me but I had to ad my two cents worth. Good luck and I will see you in Greenville. Thanks for your :2cents:, Joel. Hey, make sure to look for me at Greenville. Check out my most recent photo album and you will know what I look like with cap and suit! I'll look forward to meeting you! :agree:

How do I train 400 IM without losing sprint speed? Recently, you attempted an easy 400 IM in workout to see if you could swim a 100 fly without pausing at the walls. you went 7:24 you did a 400 Im in a meet & went 7:16 you swim 6x per wk & 3 to 3.8k per practice Train with a team & coach as often as you can don't train in that HOT pool If you only trained for the 400 IM, you wouldn't lose speed. Your BR would be fine. Bump up your daily yardage to 4, 4.5 or even 5k per practice. but do some speed training in every practice. Train for the 200 & 400 free plus Br & IM follow my tips in the Last 150 of my 500 falls off Train Free: 3 or 4 x/wk Train BR/IM 2 or 3 x/wk, but kick 400 BR in every practice. but not 400 straight, do 8 x 50 or 16 x 25 Train for longer stuff until you are 1.5 to 2 weeks away from your big meet then switch to sprints. Get a tech suit for big meet and you will BE AMAZED at your time improvements. Consider my 400 IM race strategy as described in my Thu Jul 21st, 2011 blog Ande's 400 IM Race Strategy FL fast start, a few small easy SDKs, cruise it, breathe every stroke, barely kick, do small amplitude kicks with less effort, think about keeping your body flat, smooth & easy speed, not many SDKs off your turn, SAVE your legs, FEEL like you could go much faster BK cruise it, easy speed, small steady kick, great technique & body position, pick up the pace on your 2nd 50, not many SDKs, take extra breaths as you approach your BK to Br turn, you want to feel fairly decent at the 200 FAST BK to BR turn Flip it push off hard and glide FAR BR fast hands on your insweep and thrust, kick HARD and glide far after each kick Great DPS, go fast don't spin, Ride the Glide after each kick, Br is where you catch and pass people who went out too hard. FR bring it home strong, give it all you got, Breathe every stroke except from the flags in on your 2nd 50, 6 beat kick the WHOLE 100 Hey Ande! I appreciate your input on my thread. Hey, that 7:16 I swam was just in a post-meet workout, a few days after. I was tired from insomnia and had no competition to push me. I just slugged along in my community pool. (By the way, they reduced the temperature to 82 for the summer, so conditions have improved. :banana: ) It's good to hear you don't think I would lose breaststroke speed training for the 400 IM. I would still do your speed workouts, as well as Allen's, so I would hope that would be enough to prevent a loss of speed. No can do on the bumped- up yardage, though. As you know from earlier posts, I have had previous injuries and major surgery that make that kind of yardage quite risky for further repetitive stress injuries. I also have autoimmune issues that would make that kind of yardage too hard on my body. When I tried swimming even more yardage than I am now, I paid for it with two miserable, painful months. :cane: Remember... As I have said before, I am in this for the long haul; I want to grow up to be just like my 95 year old teammate, Anne Dunivin. ;) Thanks for your set ideas/ weekly plan. :applaud: And, thanks TONS for your race strategy! :applaud: :applaud: This is great; just what I needed. I will do my best to follow that strategy- except for one thing: The flip from back to ***. One of my autoimmune issues is Meniere's (inner ear disorder) which becomes quite evident when I attempt flips. I used to do them quite well in high school; now they just make me disoriented and seasick. Once I snap at the waist and my head goes down, I'm in trouble! :afraid:So, my coach has worked with me on improving my open turns. Thanks again for your input, Ande! :D

Another piece of advice: work on fly technique do that your efficiency is good enough that you can do a decent 100 fly with a minimum of effort. If you have to work too hard on that first 100, the last 150 yards of the 400 IM is never very fun. First, before I get to your fly advice, I must say the responses on this thread has been very interesting. It has sparked a very useful debate; one that benefits all of us, I think. Each poster has made valid points; all worth pondering. As a relative newbie (Before joining USMS, in 2010, I only swam in high school under a "coach" who was a P.E. teacher and didn't know how to swim), I am taking this all in and evaluating which advice will be best for me. I am looking forward to this challenge, because I enjoyed every single one of the challenges I faced in USMS swimming before it. Ever since my first pentathlon, I have broken free of the breaststroke-only meet lineup and have enjoyed meets so much more. And, the tougher the challenge, the greater the thrill; it's exhilarating when I hit my goals. :bliss: Now, about your fly advice... Fly is the stroke my coach has been relentless about, when I train in his program twice per week. He keeps an eye on every lap, reminding me of what I need to do to accomplish just what you said. You two think alike! And, I hear his voice in my head every time I swim fly. :agree: Thanks, Chris!

Also, don't go in assuming you need one day to be a distance day and the next day is your sprint day. You can always do an aerobic set and then follow it up with a sprint set in the same workout. Worst idea ever for sprinters. I would suggest the reverse if you're going to do both (ugh) in the same workout. Sprint first; otherwise, you'll be too tired for real AFAP work. I was thinking the 400 IM was the 7th event after the 4 x 50, 100 *** and 100 IM. Allen may have the best idea. Work on 400 IM technique and longer slower swimming on your aerobic/recovery days from HIT. You definitely can't do HIT 6x a week. 6x is already a lot of swimming. And if you already tend toward injury, combining HIT and HV could be tricky.

If you have good technique while sprinting, you should have good technique during a 400, but the opposite is not true. That's the dang truth right there. A pretty 400+ doesn't mean jack in the 50/100, for me anyway. Then again, I've seen some calamitous distance races by sprinters also. But, I remain in awe of Switzers 26.XX second last 50 of his 500 at Nationals, which is still stupefying.

I love the 4IM, mostly because I have so much time to drop in that race. My first race was pure survival with reasonable expectations. Second race, I had looked at my splits and made a game plan on were to push it a little more. Third race, same as the second race but I had done a lot of work in the pool to hit my target splits. As mentioned by others your times will continue to drop with the experience that you gain each race and as you get in better shape. IMO, good IMers have the combo of the obvious stroke skills as well being well conditioned. My problem is that I am not a good flyer. Therfore, I use up a lot of my energy during the fly leg and I try to hold it together for the remainder of the race. My stategy for the fly leg is to not panic as the others slowly leave me behind. The previous posts are by people that have much more IM experience than me but I had to ad my two cents worth. Good luck and I will see you in Greenville.