Consider this year's SEC winning times vs. the NCAA record times:
400 Yard IM WomenNCAA: N 3:58.23 2/26/2010 Julia Smit, Stanford
1 Beisel, Elizabeth FR Florida-FL 4:03.27 3:58.35 (+.12)
400 Yard IM Men
NCAA: N 3:35.98 3/27/2009 Tyler Clary, Michigan
1 Solaeche Gomez, Ed Florida-FL 3:47.99 3:43.57 A (+7.59)
Hypothesis: the change in men's legal swimming suits has had a much greater effect than the change in women's legal swimming suits.
Is this true? I don't know.
However, I do think it is possible to find out.
Have any of our mathematically astute forumites yet attempted a regression analysis to see how much the change in suit technology has affected women and men swimmers, respectively?
This may be a cherry-picked example, but it looks as if the current crop of legal suits for women have resulted in virtually no change in the 400 IM.
In men, on the other hand, the change looks to be about 7.5 seconds. Granted, you can't make too many assumptions comparing NCAA records (with full body suits) vs. SEC championship times (in the new suits) in just one event.
However, it's now been two years since the B70 and other body kayak flotation devices have been illegalized for both genders, and replaced by the respective FINA approved garments we are now allowed to wear.
There have been reams of times recorded in college and masters databases, ripe for the plucking!
Surely someone out there has already been (or could be cajoled into) crunching sufficient quantities of data to come up with some rough guidelines for the impact the suit change has had!
Surely I am not the only one hoping to apportion my performance declines according to 1) the toll of years, and 2) the change in suit technology.
In my age group, here are the times in the 400 IM in 2010 (body kayaks) vs. 2011 (jammers for men; new short john legal body suits for women)--note, I highlighted in red those who made the list both years in the same age group, allowing for a better person-to-person comparison:
MEN
400 Individual Medley SCY Men 55-59 (2010)
1 Michael T Mann 55 CMS Colorado 4:28.69
2 Donald B Gilchrist 56 NCMS North Carolina 4:40.65
3 Phil L Dodson 57 IM Illinois 4:45.42
4 Bob Yant 56 IM Illinois 4:47.76
5 Jim Clemmons 59 MAM Pacific 4:48.86
6 Peter M Guadagni 55 WCM Pacific 4:49.17
7 Neil R Wasserman 55 O*H* Lake Erie 4:50.68
8 Stephen D Kevan 55 OREG Oregon 4:52.39
9 Thomas G Bliss 55 ORLM Florida 4:54.56
10 Jimmy Welborn 55 RATS Southeastern 4:54.94
400 Individual Medley SCY Men 55-59 (2011)
1 Michael T Mann 56 CMS Colorado 4:30.56
2 Rick Colella 59 PNA Pacific Northwest 4:35.84
3 Timothy M Shead 58 GOLD Florida Gold Coast 4:45.05
4 Donald B Gilchrist 57 NCMS North Carolina 4:50.58
5 Neil R Wasserman 55 O*H* Lake Erie 4:53.22
6 Peter M Guadagni 56 WCM Pacific 4:56.53
7 Paul G Karas 55 MICH Michigan 4:57.64
8 Mark Montgomery 55 NOVA Southern Pacific 4:59.58
9 Phil L Dodson 58 IM Illinois 5:02.66
10 David C Bright 58 NEM New England 5:05.44
WOMEN
400 Individual Medley SCY Women 55-59 (2010)
1 Laura B Val 58 TAM Pacific 5:03.92
2 Nancy Steadman Martin 55 GSM New Jersey 5:09.76
3 Lo D Knapp 55 UTAH Utah 5:17.95
4 Camille W Thompson 55 PNA Pacific Northwest 5:28.88
5 Shirley A Loftus-Charley 58 VMST Virginia 5:29.09
6 Charlotte M Davis 59 PNA Pacific Northwest 5:33.04
7 Nancy Kryka 55 MINN Minnesota 5:36.70
8 Catherine K Kohn 56 SLAM Ozark 5:40.95
9 Ronda S Nisman 55 MOST South Texas 5:41.99
10 Barbara Protzman 55 GOLD Florida Gold Coast 5:50.96
400 Individual Medley SCY Women 55-59 (2011)
1 Nancy Steadman Martin 56 GSM New Jersey 5:17.93
2 Shirley A Loftus-Charley 59 VMST Virginia 5:28.24
3 Elaine S Valdez 55 MOST South Texas 5:29.46
4 Pat A Sargeant 57 GOLD Florida Gold Coast 5:34.59
5 Evie S Lynch 58 PHX Arizona 5:39.49
6 Nancy Kryka 56 MINN Minnesota 5:47.26
7 Mary M Welsh 57 TCAM Pacific 5:54.69
8 Margaret Hair 55 HMS Inland Northwest 5:59.80
9 Barbara Protzman 56 GOLD Florida Gold Coast 6:02.14
10 Karen Bierwert 58 NEM New England 6:06.35
I concede this does little to prove or disprove my hypothesis. If I am looking at the times correctly, only one 55-59 TT swimmer improved times between 2010 and 2011--Shirley.
The variation in declines shown by all the others of both genders was quite large, from Michael Mann's less than 2 seconds, to Phil Dodson's over 17. All sorts of non-swimming-related factors can play a role here, which is why to get meaningful results, lots and lots of results have to be subjected to what I think Chris Stevenson called a "regression analysis" to draw even quasi-reliable inferences.
Is there someone out there, perhaps a retired math professor with a touch of Asperger's who shares my fascination with this dead-horse-beaten topic, who would be willing to perform just such a regression analysis and share the results on this thread?
I am tempted to add a poll so that we can each vote according to what we want to believe, only to have this subjected to the cold hard reality of scientific inquiry!
Oh, hell. I will add such a poll, at the considerable risk of being drubbed off these forums for the foreseeable future for the sin of trollish monotony.
Former Member
Jim...work on establish EVF through a deeper hand entry rather than clutching at straws...this may aid the swimming!
:banana:
Also It's possible for swimmers to swim faster in textile suits than they ever did in full body rubber suits.
Maybe you should write a tip on this! Or a special one for Jimby entitled "Overcoming the Nocebo Effect."
Maybe you should write a tip on this! Or a special one for Jimby entitled "Overcoming the Nocebo Effect."
I propose calling this form of nocebo effect suitdoo, short for "suit vodoo."
I think it's also a good term for what Speedo stock holders are likely to be feeling soon when thousands of aspiring elite high school swimmers in Virginia with rich parents wake up and realize that $595 is a lot of money to waste on the FS3.
Remember that you heard this first here from me when you read a stock analyst report in the Wall Street Journal soon:
"Shares of Speedo took an absolute thrashing today as investors dumped their holdings in response to worldwide rejection of the company's latest 'miracle suit.' The FS3 was supposed to let swimmers go faster in an era where FINA has mandated swim suit technology can't provide anyone an advantage. The good news for Speedo: their suit fully complied with this mandate. The bad news: the suit fully complied with this mandate. 'My portfolio is in deep suitdoo,' complained one ruined investor as he headed out of the stock exchange, hoping to locate a cardboard box wherein to live out the rest of his life."
Ok... last stab at this... I promise. I'm not trying to prolong this. Its just an interesting problem to me. I don't pine for the days to floaty suits. Mostly because I never owned one and only competed at one meet where the were around. I'd prefer that the suits not come back. I don't really care if women get more advantage from more suit coverage.
Here's a pretty chart I made last night:
www.usms.org/.../attachment.php
This is the data I plotted from:
Year 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011
Men 500 Free 0.00% 1.23% 0.23% 0.08%
Men 50 Free 0.00% 1.88% 0.25% 0.51%
Men 200 Br 0.00% 1.79% 1.54% 1.54%
Men 200 Fly 0.00% 1.71% 1.14% 1.05%
Women 500 Free 0.00% 0.35% 1.16% 0.92% 1.55%
Women 50 Free 0.00% 0.40% 1.16% 0.40% 0.89%
Women 200 Br 0.00% 0.60% 2.33% 1.95% 1.95%
Women 200 Fly 0.00% 0.93% 2.20% 1.78% 1.52%
Unlike the previous runs, I just made 2007 to be the baseline year.
Here are the pseudo-scientific conclusions I get from all of this:
* Floaty full body tech suits were worth about a 1.5% performance gain give or take 0.5%. Maybe they help men with beer bellies more but that's a problem for a water tunnel. If you miss the old days, just divide your time by 1.015 and you should be good to go.
* The suits helped men and women about the same. Might have helped short axis swimmers a little more than freestyle swimmers. Too little data to conclude much on that.
* Taking away the suits hurt men a little more than women (relative to 2007). My theory on this is that suit manufacturers are learning a lot about what to compress and where/how much to compress it. With the lack of coverage on men, there's a lot less to improve upon.
I'll be interested to see if women keep trending upward in the 2012 NCAAs while the men's times remain relatively flat.
The Univ of Richmond team ordered them, tried them on, and are leaving them home in favor of the older suits. Not a single person liked them.
They clearly only tried on the suits and not the entire SYSTEM including the cap and goggles! :banana:
I'm in the market for a new suit to use for the upcoming championship season. At this point I'm leaning toward the Blue Seventy Nero TX, but I'll be interested to see what swimmers are wearing at NCAA Champs, etc. I'm not opposed to trying one of the high waist models.
Oh well. I still have my ballet career to work on. It's coming along rather nicely.
I never wore a tech suit. Not worthy of one. Not of that caliber swimmer. I have no pride. I can admit this. I still like to race.
Enjoy those tondus and attitudes. :)
As for the tech suits, I have never worn anything newer than the Fusion except in practice. Last year I was able to wear a full body B70. I raced in 2 races during practice and hated the feeling the suit gave me. I guess I'm so used to feeling like I'm in more control that the suit didn't sit well with me.
Last year I was able to wear a full body B70. I raced in 2 races during practice and hated the feeling the suit gave me.
They do feel strange at first. I had the same reaction the first time I swam in a B70. Then I swam a 1000 free probably 15 seconds faster than I ever had in masters before and I quickly realized I could get used to that feeling!
Ok... last stab at this... I promise. I'm not trying to prolong this. Its just an interesting problem to me. I don't pine for the days to floaty suits. Mostly because I never owned one and only competed at one meet where the were around. I'd prefer that the suits not come back. I don't really care if women get more advantage from more suit coverage.
Here's a pretty chart I made last night:
www.usms.org/.../attachment.php
This is the data I plotted from:
Year 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011
Men 500 Free 0.00% 1.23% 0.23% 0.08%
Men 50 Free 0.00% 1.88% 0.25% 0.51%
Men 200 Br 0.00% 1.79% 1.54% 1.54%
Men 200 Fly 0.00% 1.71% 1.14% 1.05%
Women 500 Free 0.00% 0.35% 1.16% 0.92% 1.55%
Women 50 Free 0.00% 0.40% 1.16% 0.40% 0.89%
Women 200 Br 0.00% 0.60% 2.33% 1.95% 1.95%
Women 200 Fly 0.00% 0.93% 2.20% 1.78% 1.52%
Unlike the previous runs, I just made 2007 to be the baseline year.
Here are the pseudo-scientific conclusions I get from all of this:
* Floaty full body tech suits were worth about a 1.5% performance gain give or take 0.5%. Maybe they help men with beer bellies more but that's a problem for a water tunnel. If you miss the old days, just divide your time by 1.015 and you should be good to go.
* The suits helped men and women about the same. Might have helped short axis swimmers a little more than freestyle swimmers. Too little data to conclude much on that.
* Taking away the suits hurt men a little more than women (relative to 2007). My theory on this is that suit manufacturers are learning a lot about what to compress and where/how much to compress it. With the lack of coverage on men, there's a lot less to improve upon.
I'll be interested to see if women keep trending upward in the 2012 NCAAs while the men's times remain relatively flat.
Pete, I beg you! Keep this going! No need to apologize whatsoever to the churlish fellows and lasses out there who are sick of this topic. There is at least on non-churlish fellow who is the opposite of sick of it.
This forum used to be a hotbed of amateur mathematical hobbyists with graphing calculators!
Perhaps it is the profoundly anti-science ethos of our age, where a cold day in January proves global warming is a hoax, or a panda's thumb is cause to reject evolution out of hand!
There are many of us former high Math SAT types out here who, because of advancing age, have largely forgotten what quadratic equations and regression analyses are.
The problem is that we are by and large a quiet, controversy-avoiding, introverted lot.
I am certain there are many shy lurkers just like me who find your analyses brilliant and fodder for endless ruminations!
Keep it up, my good man! Keep it up.
Next step: do some comparisons of masters times. What's a bit tricky here is the age change effect--where someone might make the TT in one age group, then age up to the next.
There are other factors, certainly, too--harder training, perhaps, in the age-up year.
But if you are looking for reasons to indulge your hobby, please, please know that one obsessive out here is enjoying the bejesus out of the fruits of your labors.
PS I like the stereotype-reverse--using pink to chart the male changes, and blue to chart the female ones.
Suit changes affected:
+ men more than women
+ older swimmers more than younger swimmers
+ breastrokers more than other types of swimmers
men more than women
men in jammers have a lower percentage of their bodies coveraged than women in textile kneeskins
older swimmers more than younger swimmers
older swimmers tend to have looser skin and sometimes more fat
the looser skin increases resistance
+ breastrokers more than other types of swimmers
Breastroke has the most gliding, swimmers glided further and faster in full body rubber suits.
The actual performance drop off varies for each swimmer. Also It's possible for swimmers to swim faster in textile suits than they ever did in full body rubber suits.
To measure performance differences check FINA world rankings Year by year
here's what the men's 100 freestyle LCM times were:
Year / 1st / 10th / 25th / 50th / 75th / 100th
2004 48.17 49.08 49.73 51.06 51.52 52.20
2007 47.91 48.72 49.35 49.90 50.17 50.53
2008 47.05 47.77 48.43 49.09 49.59 50.04 (olympic bump)
2009 46.91 47.78 48.37 48.93 49.43 49.80 (last year of full body tech suits)
2010 47.98 48.54 48.83 49.41 49.83 50.16 (first year of jammers)
2011 47.49 48.24 48.69 49.11 49.44 49.69
Suit changes affected:
+ breastrokers more than other types of swimmers
Have to admit that I looked forward to racing a little more in 2010 because (as a tightwad and a masters swimmer just swimming to have fun) I knew I would be swimming against my competitors' breaststroke swimming abilities and not their "suit-aided" abilities.