first of all, congrats to the meet directors and all the volunteers on a job well done. so organized and efficient!! very impressive. the only thing i wish someone could explain to me is why the usms champ. committee changed the team scoring from large, medium and small team to clumping everyone in the same category. seems extremely unfair to have what i call "real teams" competing against state mega teams. there is no possibility for "real teams" to ever come close to competing against them. if you are going to give team awards at the end of the meet, is there any way you can do it fairly? our team is extremely proud to have gotten as many team members as we did to go to natls. (most of them for the first time), but unfortunately they were very disillusioned (as was i) with the idea that we would be competing against state teams. as one of the coaches i didn't have an explanation. even though we were very proud of our 7th place finish in men's division, and our 12th place in combined, we were only one of a few "real teams" in the top ten. would appreciate responses. maybe even someone from the champ.committee could explain how they felt this scoring system would be more fair to the majority of swimmers. then i can pass it along to my teammates.. i don't want them to be so disillusioned that they lose interest in attending any future natls. thanks
Hey Karen, we keep misunderstanding each other. :) You guys TOTALLY deserved a banner in that case. I was refering to rTodd's example of not being able to put together even a relay becasue there were not enough people. If your are on a smaller team, say 40 members, and can only get 2-3 people to go to Nationals, then I don't think that TEAM would be deserving of a banner - and I sometimes it seems that's what many people are trying to create: a scoring system where every team with 1-2 good swimmers can earn a banner. IMO, that's not a team in the true sense of the word. (Uh oh, I'll wait for comments on that. I'm just speaking freely here people and I hope someone can relate to this perspective.)
And actually, your example is PERFECT! You guys were able to win a banner with 8 people. It really doesn't take a miracle or a huge team to win a banner. You can do a lot of damage with 8 swimmers. That's deserving of recognition! Good job.
Swim,
Good job trying to sort through it all. Before I take all that on though (which I'll do later when my brain is somewhat functioning).
I will respectfully disagree that just because "your club does not get a lot of people to go to Nationals, you should not get a banner." Why not? When we went to LC Nationals in Michigan in 1996 their were about 8 of us I think. We were in the small division. I don't remember what place we got, but many of us placed in the top 5 in all of our events so we scored really well, and some of our relays won :) Why didn't we deserve that banner?
Hi,
Given the strenuous objections to S/M/L, maybe subcategories of combined, mens, womens team scores for regional teams and local team divisions makes sense.
I also think these disucssions have been constructive and am interested to see more commentary.
Leianne
Hi,
Given the strenuous objections to S/M/L, maybe subcategories of combined, mens, womens team scores for regional teams and local team divisions makes sense.
Leianne
Hi Leianne,
I don't know if I'd agree with the term "strenuous" although Jim and Brian are fairly adamant about their position. Plus, I sense that more folks agree with s,m,l than disagree.
YEAH!!! Jim, welcome back - I needed some support in the argument that S/M/L divisions are a BAD IDEA. While I understand the point of leveling the playing field (even more), it just casues SO MANY problems. Karen and Jim's debate is yet another example.
I completely agree with Jim that the team that scores the most points should win. My caveat is that I am in favor of Regional/Local simply because they are different beasts. I believe Jim is in favor of that too?? Yet, I guess I DISAGREE that WCM deserved a banner in Michigan because they DID score enough points to earn one, regardless of how many swimmers they had.
And exactly, if New England Masters doesn't bring very many swimmers to Nationals in Austin, then they shouldn't get a banner. And no, they SHOULD NOT then be categorized in the Medium division so they WIN! That's ludicrous!
Regional teams in 1 division. Local teams in another. Done. This whole debate over S/M/L divisions has so much wrong with it.
rTodd - fyi, banners are awarded to the top 10 teams at Nationals.
I am but one folk, I realize. And it doesn't seem like too many people are jumping in here. It isn't surprising though since less than 1% of USMS members actually compete!
I will be clear, I hope: I want to see Regional vs Local Club (1-10 combined only). Reason: Keep it simple. And that's only 20 awards.
I don't really care if there is a SML, however in an effort to keep National scoring simple I don't recommend it. Plus, that method of putting into categories always ticks somebody off! And if you look at past Nationals, I have seen teams in the Small category OUTSCORE those in the Medium division.
No one can argue with Regional vs. Local Club because you are in either one category or the other. You bring lots of people who might score, or a few that score highly, or a bunch that will score! Build your competitive National team or don't. But this way everybody knows going in what category they will be in. No surprises, no upset people.
Also, Karen, it's good to hear you say again that you agree there is no need for S/M/L.
Finally, Jim effectively describes how a team should not be "rewarded" by being placed in a smaller division for bringing fewer swimmers. Yet, the alternative of calulating the size division by number of registered swimmers will not work. A lot of teams cannot even tell you how many swimmers they have, and it changes drastically from month to month as swimmers come in and out, take a year or five off without notifying anyone but rather waits for the treasurer to figure it out when no checks come in. Are we talking "active" members or "total" members? S/M/L division open SO MANY more questions. What happened to KEEP IT SIMPLE?
-Brian
Some of my teammates overheard people at convention saying that if it were to go to "a number" of registered swimmers that would categorize teams for Nationals competitions, they would simply hold off "reporting" to USMS how many swimmers they had. There is a valid argument for not making the number registered on a team the criterion for SML at Nationals.
Yes, Regional and Local Club divisions (1-10 combined only); No SML.
I'd still like to see Men's, Women's, and Combined. :) Perhaps out of mere tradion??? New can of worms - I'm curious to hear arguments on both sides of this issue.
