team scoring

I think some valid points are being made here about scoring teams at USMS nationals, including: Does have team scoring at nationals benefit USMS & its mission ? I think the concensus is YES; it does benefit and promote fitness & friendly competition. What system provide some fair and equitable team scoring system ? These discussions are helpful. I think the recent changes to the system provided by the Championship committee need to continue to be evaluated and discussed. At least one person has pointed toward the questions, is swimming an individual or team sport which focus on the question surround relay teams. Since USMS is part of the USAS governing national body, which is in turn the member of FINA, I think we need to first look at what FINA does. Does FINA formally score team at Olympic or World Championships ? I'll have to consult my FINA Rule book. Should we parellal USA Swimming scoring system (or NCAA, high school, YMCA, etc) at nationals for continuity within the sport ? Should we look at other masters sport to see how they handle scoring at national events ? FINA does require individuals be representing a "club" at FINA event, so no unattached swimmers or relays. FINA leave it to the governing bodies to determine how to define "club". USMS has not had a geographic restriction on registering with a club. The fixability built into the USMS system allows for difference within the population distribution with USA. In large metropolitain areas, "club" are sometimes individual workout groups or "teams". In less populated area or regions, multiple workout groups or perhaps entire LMSC are registered with USMS as a single "club". USMS could create one "National Club" called "USMS" and anyone from across USA, which was discussed with the FINA World Masters in 2006. Question: Should USMS have a geographic restriction for "clubs" ? The proposal of within 100miles - is that sufficient or fair for large geographic areas with low population density ? Should "workout" groups be built into "club" defitions like many LMSC use at local or regional or zone meets ? Also, each solution has advantages and disadvantage. Large, Medium, and Small teams has the disadvantage for "arbitary" dividing teams into these 3 subcatagories. Another proposal is "LMSC Club" (with 50% or more registered swimming within LMSC in a single club) and "Club", which again will have a disadvantage to LMSC with small popluation to draw upon and a club from a rural vs metropolitain area. Yet another would be a high bread of catagories based on numbers of registered swimmers in an LMSC, instead of number who actually come to USMS nationals to determine for a season/year which catagory a "club" would represent (large, medium, small - LMSC vs workout/club) ! An interesting solution is number of swims/splashes divided by number of swimmers, which would "normalize" the difference between larger and smaller clubs. Alternatively, at a recent event in Paris France, I learned they use a scoring system that awards points based on swim relative to national/region records. I don't completely understand it, but a swimmer gets about 1000 points for matching the national/champoinship record - and performance relative scaled to the record performances. I think a bigger question comes back to LMSC and registration. Should swimmers be required to register in the LMSC they live ? Should we re-evaluate the LMSC structure so the population distribution is reflective in the size of the LMSC ? We have a LMSC structure that is historically based on AAU, and may not serve masters swimming anymore. USA Swimming has continue to modify and update from the historical AAU, like they only have 4 Zone and USMS continues to have 8. Does this serve the mission and goes of USMS ? Lots of good discussion... and hopefully, some of these may make it to the Championship Committe, Rules Committee, & HOD at 2007 USAS/USMS Convention, as we evaluate the mission, goals, administration, and rules/policies/legislation for our organization. 2007 is a legislation year, so this many not qualify as "emergence" rules need at convention ? Anthony Thompson USMS Breadbasket Zone Rep & Missouri Valley LMSC Chair

I think some valid points are being made here about scoring teams at USMS nationals, including: Does have team scoring at nationals benefit USMS & its mission ? I think the concensus is YES; it does benefit and promote fitness & friendly competition. What system provide some fair and equitable team scoring system ? These discussions are helpful. I think the recent changes to the system provided by the Championship committee need to continue to be evaluated and discussed. At least one person has pointed toward the questions, is swimming an individual or team sport which focus on the question surround relay teams. Since USMS is part of the USAS governing national body, which is in turn the member of FINA, I think we need to first look at what FINA does. Does FINA formally score team at Olympic or World Championships ? I'll have to consult my FINA Rule book. Should we parellal USA Swimming scoring system (or NCAA, high school, YMCA, etc) at nationals for continuity within the sport ? Should we look at other masters sport to see how they handle scoring at national events ? FINA does require individuals be representing a "club" at FINA event, so no unattached swimmers or relays. FINA leave it to the governing bodies to determine how to define "club". USMS has not had a geographic restriction on registering with a club. The fixability built into the USMS system allows for difference within the population distribution with USA. In large metropolitain areas, "club" are sometimes individual workout groups or "teams". In less populated area or regions, multiple workout groups or perhaps entire LMSC are registered with USMS as a single "club". USMS could create one "National Club" called "USMS" and anyone from across USA, which was discussed with the FINA World Masters in 2006. Question: Should USMS have a geographic restriction for "clubs" ? The proposal of within 100miles - is that sufficient or fair for large geographic areas with low population density ? Should "workout" groups be built into "club" defitions like many LMSC use at local or regional or zone meets ? Also, each solution has advantages and disadvantage. Large, Medium, and Small teams has the disadvantage for "arbitary" dividing teams into these 3 subcatagories. Another proposal is "LMSC Club" (with 50% or more registered swimming within LMSC in a single club) and "Club", which again will have a disadvantage to LMSC with small popluation to draw upon and a club from a rural vs metropolitain area. Yet another would be a high bread of catagories based on numbers of registered swimmers in an LMSC, instead of number who actually come to USMS nationals to determine for a season/year which catagory a "club" would represent (large, medium, small - LMSC vs workout/club) ! An interesting solution is number of swims/splashes divided by number of swimmers, which would "normalize" the difference between larger and smaller clubs. Alternatively, at a recent event in Paris France, I learned they use a scoring system that awards points based on swim relative to national/region records. I don't completely understand it, but a swimmer gets about 1000 points for matching the national/champoinship record - and performance relative scaled to the record performances. I think a bigger question comes back to LMSC and registration. Should swimmers be required to register in the LMSC they live ? Should we re-evaluate the LMSC structure so the population distribution is reflective in the size of the LMSC ? We have a LMSC structure that is historically based on AAU, and may not serve masters swimming anymore. USA Swimming has continue to modify and update from the historical AAU, like they only have 4 Zone and USMS continues to have 8. Does this serve the mission and goes of USMS ? Lots of good discussion... and hopefully, some of these may make it to the Championship Committe, Rules Committee, & HOD at 2007 USAS/USMS Convention, as we evaluate the mission, goals, administration, and rules/policies/legislation for our organization. 2007 is a legislation year, so this many not qualify as "emergence" rules need at convention ? Anthony Thompson USMS Breadbasket Zone Rep & Missouri Valley LMSC Chair