Enforcement of NQT's for National Championships

Originally posted by cinc310 ... I was surprise about Dickie Ferandez time and when I read that he started as an adult and doing 49 in the 100 yard freestyle. This is under the Arizona website under pictures. ... Like I said in my last post, claims of starting swimming past teenage years and achieving a 49 seconds for the 100 free, are bogus: when I check such claims against the criterions I put in my last post (and not by naively reading an official web site), they are never true yet. Understand carefully the criterions checking the validity of the claims of starting swimming way past teenage years, criterions that I wrote in my previous post. Originally posted by cinc310 ... And in the 70 to 75 women age group,... ... My posts spell NQTs for men ages 40 to 44. With individuals taken one by one. It applies to NQTs for men ages 30 to 34, also. Originally posted by cinc310 ... Some people are natural swimmers which are able to overcome a late start. ... That's what I am in the rankings of Nationals, filled with former age-groupers around my placing. That's what I am in workouts, also: for example, you as a former age group swimmer -and plenty of others like you-, you cannot begin to touch me in any freestyle distance, me being the late starter; with any of your times stated in another thread, from age group swimming (a 1:02 in 100 free) until now as a slower adult. Originally posted by cinc310 ... And in Paul Smith case I think if he started at 40 he would probably be doing a 52 for a 100 yard freestyle because he's more naturally talent than either of us. ... I don't think so. I think that your statement is sentiment (in the style of: "-You look sooo fast. How fast are you in a 100 yards free?", "-Guess!", "-I don't know. 35 seconds, maybe?"), and is not first hand knowledge of this topic from readings, training and competitions like mine is. I have to see documented evidence of passing the strict criterions for a late start -which I enumerated in my previous post-, of a late starter who overtakes me. Heck, I have to see documented evidence -passing the strict criterions for a late start- of the starter in swimming way after teenage years who goes for the first time in history under 11:50 in 1000 free and under 56 in 100 free.

You could beat me in freestyle even when I was at my peak. I was not a freestyler. My best 100 yard free was at 1:03.8 and 5:58.0 in 500 yard freestyle as a teenager. Now in breastroke I swam a 1:16.1, the next best time was 1:16.8. My Masters time was a lot slower at 1:34.58. I don't workout as many yardages as you do as an adult. All those yardage as a kid built me up to swim fairly good up to the age of 20 years but I didn't even start working again at least an hour 3 to 4 times a week until last June. I also workout on my own, so I don't have a group to pace with. However, sometimes at lap swimming, I find someone near my speed. I was just saying is that I'm not the most natural swimmer and some age groupers that were A and B swimmers like myself can be beated by some master swimmers that started as adults. Your age group is very competitive even more so than the women in the 40 to44 because colleges recruited every male swimmer at least pre-national level to swim for them back in the late 1970s thru the mid 1980's. Women college programs in the 1970s' and early 1980's were behind the men's programs. They were still alot more men's swiming programs back then at college and guy swimmers workout until 22 or 23 and many went over to masters competiton after college.

Ion, there are those of us that swam as teenagers that also can't make the national standards:Me, Matt S, Meg Smath, and some others. I was surprise about Dickie Ferandez time and when I read that he started as an adult and doing 49 in the 100 yard freestyle. This is under the Arizona website under pictures. And in the 70 to 75 women age group, C Taylor an olympic breastroker in 1948 gets beaten by Edie G in freestyle and backstroke who didn't start swimming competion until her 40's . And as I stated Sally Bolar who didn't start swimming on a masters team until age 50 can beat me in free and fly and she is in her early 60's. Some people are natural swimmers which are able to overcome a late start. But as I stated in the younger age groups starting late makes it harder to be at the top. And in Paul Smith case I think if he started at 40 he would probably be doing a 52 for a 100 yard freestyle because he's more naturally talent than either of us. Read swim magazine in the older age groups particularly women the top swimmers started late.

Originally posted by cinc310 ... Your age group is very competitive... ... What I am saying Cynthia, is that in men ages 40 to 44, people don't make NQTs by being late starters like I am: two posts ago, I went through a list of results from the 2003 Short Course Nationals, one by one, and competitors don't make NQTs by being late starters like me. I stick with my VO2Max explanation as the main reason for this. Because swimming and cross-country skiing are the most cardio-vascular sports. One swimmer in the list is Rich Schroeder, a 1984 and 1988 Olympian, who swam a 48.41 for 100 free in the 2003 Short Course Nationals. So, to claim a flat start in swimming when one is in his 20s, then to claim that ten years later he is doing a 49.0 for 100 free, that shocks even Olympian Schroeder. I guess talk is cheap, but achievement is very expensive: in my presence, everywhere I am in the U.S., people easily balk away from this achievement. The majority of men ages 40 to 44 don't make NQTs, even after being teenage swimmers. So, the USMS Nationals that give three mercy events to anyone, that's inclusive.

Talking about slowdowns, someone on this site pointed out a little meet at Mission Viejo this year and Brain Goodell, who probably rarely worksout these days swam a 56.0 in 100 yard freestyle, so you Ion don't swim that slow. It just shows that his great swimming ability was develop a lot by swimming 20,000 meters or yards a day when he was a youngster and when he stop swimming or rarely workout in swimming all these years, he wasn't better than many swimmers in the 40 to 44 year old age group.

Okay by now most of us (if not all of us) knows how Ion feels cheated in life because he didn't start swimming until after his teenage years, when if he swam his swimming specific VO2 sytem would have developed better making him a faster swimmer. In regards to Ion's statements about how someone who didn't swim as a teenager would never be able to compete at an elite or even semi-elite level, and that his times are an incredible feat. The fact is Ion, I did not swim as a teenager - I stopped swimming when I was about 11 and didn't start swimming back again until I was in college at 20 (about a 9 year lay off). True I did swim lessons and even swam for a few years on a club team prior to my teenage years, but during the time my VO2 was developing I was exploring other pursuits (skateboarding, waterskiing, running, etc) a dip in the pool here or there to cool off but no real swimming (unless you consider my advance lifesaving class to become a lifeguard). So by your standards my college times of 100 free of 50.2 and 200 free of 1:50.8 are performances comparable to other olympians since I didn't swim in my teenage years (NOT !) when actually I would say they were fair to good times. Even with this lay off in swimming I could make several national qualifying times for my age bracket, might not be a top ten, probably not even a top 20 swimmer so what those were my choices. I fully agree with Gail - swim a little more, a little smarter and you can make a few NQT's. Good luck. Jeff

I am a firm believer that "talent" is made not given. Oh, yes, some swimmers have more bouyancy, some are taller, etc , but I think that anyone can make the NQT if they work hard for it. Regardless of age-group. I think Ion can make it, but he needs a lot of stroke work and the correct training. It should be clear by now that 10,000 yards per day doesn't work.

We rehearse again the same songs, until we learn. I have patience for a few more thousands plays: Originally posted by Gail Roper ... I think Ion can make it, ... ... Not the NQTs for men ages 40 to 44, as a late starter. In a post last August, I stated that the NQTs for men ages 40 to 44 in the 2002 Long Course Nationals are the fastest times in the entire meet in six events out of seveteen. These are the fastest men NQTs in the entire meet -i.e.: all men age groups-, in 35% of events. So the NQTs of men 40 to 44, dominate the 2002 Long Course Nationals. You are not in this situation to know it: when you are a man, age 40 to 44, late starter, make them then tell me more; I know about who makes NQTs in men 40 to 44 one by one, and found that they developed their USMS NQTs as pre-USMS age-groupers, and stayed in shape in USMS; I don't see men ages 40 to 44, late starters who make NQTs across U.S.. As a late starter, I am making it well: .) in the 2003 Short Course Nationals, I swam my lifetime second best in the 100 free in 58.40; (mind you, my lifetime best for the 100 meters free Long Course is 1:04.63, which would convert into a 100 yards free in about 57.20, not my 58.11 from 1994). .) in April 2003, it was 12:25 in the 1000 free. To me, these times are making it. Originally posted by Gail Roper ...but he needs a lot of stroke work and the correct training. ... Again: .) workouts in USMS clubs across the U.S. are overwhelmingly not focusing on preparing to race in USMS competitions; .) I trust a program now to prepare me for USMS competitions, but I don't know what surprises might happen; .) the key in swimming is VO2Max as in swimming cardiovascular, and developing it when older -which I do- is more challenging. Originally posted by Gail Roper ... It should be clear by now that 10,000 yards per day doesn't work. It is clear to you. Ask competitive coaches, like Mark Schubert, what is clear in swimming when preparing Erik Vendt in 2003 and Brian Goodell in 1976 for the 1000 free. Originally posted by kaelonj Okay by now most of us (if not all of us) knows how Ion feels cheated in life because he didn't start swimming until after his teenage years, when if he swam his swimming specific VO2 sytem would have developed better making him a faster swimmer. ... No: I force the situation. Originally posted by kaelonj ... In regards to Ion's statements about how someone who didn't swim as a teenager would never be able to compete at an elite or even semi-elite level, and that his times are an incredible feat. ... Have you ever seen documented evidence of a strict late starter from level zero past teenage years who later on makes the Olympic Qualifying Times 'A' or 'B'? It doesn't exist, no matter the money. Meaning there is physiological limitation in late starting. Originally posted by kaelonj ... The fact is Ion, I did not swim as a teenager - I stopped swimming when I was about 11 and didn't start swimming back again until I was in college at 20 (about a 9 year lay off). True I did swim lessons and even swam for a few years on a club team prior to my teenage years,... You got the non compliance with a late start from level zero past teenage years, righ here. I explained the compliance, in a post on the previous page.

Ken, Hmm, that is an interesting approach. Keep the three freebie entries, but verify the NQT for events 4, 5 and 6. I am not opposed in principal to the idea, but I am of two minds on the subject. On the one hand, I think expecting that every meet director of every USMS-sanctioned meet will be diligent enough to get their meet's results into the USMS database is ... more of a challenge that you may first anticipate. I ask the question I have asked before, how do you want to spend the limited resource of volunteer hours that are available to USMS? On the other hand, meet directors who are really serious about running a first rate event can advertise that swims at their meet will be USMS verifiable, and follow through, and swimmers can chose the meets they will attend accordingly. How do we know what is feasible if we do not give it a try? Eventually, Masters Swimming is likely to get big enough and "important" enough that the temptation to cheat will outweigh ethics and group pressure. Shouldn't we start working on these issues now, before the Masters equivalent of the East German swim team hits the water? Gail: there is much to what you say, but I'm sorry. No matter how diligently I worked for however many years when I was a youngster, or how hard and smart I work today, there are still people who could fall off a log after years of inactivity, and beat me going away. I cite as an example Rowdy Gaines. We both began competitive swimming at age 15, but there the similarity ends. The best 200 free I ever managed, after 7 years of year round swimming, was 1:58.84. Rowdy, on the other hand, demonstrated to his coaches he was probably a sprinter when after one year of competitive swimming, he went 1:48 (!) for a 200, IN THE MIDDLE OF A 1000 FREE!!!! Yes, he was in a real, first rate USS Club whose training methods far exceeded my rinky-dink summer league, high school and Div III college programs, BUT AFTER ONLY ONE YEAR?! Puhlease! Talent is talent, and it's blatantly obvious who has world-class talent after a fairly short time frame. I remember seeing David Wharton as a 10 year old at Pennsylvania YMCA Championships. He swam one IM event, lapped the field, and left. There was an expectant atmosphere the moment he entered the building (as a 10 year old, for the love of Pete!) Everyone in the building knew this kid was special. So work ethic is fine, intelligent planning is fine, desire is fine, but talent rules. Period. Matt

Matt, notice that your examples of talent are strictly of youngsters. Not of their parents, who would have been then of my age when I am swimming: take any father in your two examples of talented youngsters; he must know how to swim; not stronger than me, though. To show that your two examples for determining talent are wrong in the case of a late starter, my swimming coach tells me that as a youngster when he started taking skiing lessons together with his parents, he was progressing by leaps and bounds compared to them. A valid comparison of talent for me, is in between people who started swimming late and me. This post is rewording the obvious.