Has the Championship Committee, or other entity within USMS ever discussed having a more strict policy of enforcement in regards to the NQT's?
Why do we state that you must have 3 cuts, in order to swim more events? Why not require a swimmer to have 6 cuts in order to swim 6 events?
Just like to understand more from a historical point of view. I have read post that asked, or suggested how to control the size and length of the National meets. Would not having a stricter enforcement of this policy help? Or would it cause swimmers to shy away from these meets?
Just a curious thought.
Thank you.
Good afternoon,
Some very valid points within the scope of conversation.
A point to ponder. If we want USMS to grow, and people to compete in meets then we need to start thinking about the planning of our expanding demographics and stay within the objective of USMS.
My point to all this is that the NQT's need to be looked at. The questions then becomes wether to raise them to include more swimmers at Nationals, or lower them to keep meets smaller.
My intent is to try to provide as many opportunities to any swimmer at any level.
Them's me thinks!
Thank you.
:)
Good morning,
I think we are bringing up very good points.
I think having NQT's are a good thing. Some people can acheive one, other can achieve all of them. The biggest reason is it gives you something to shoot for. For the most part I have made and NQT in all the events that I normally swim. It is fun to try to make them in "off" events.
I agree with you Dan, it maybe expensive to do but it works at the USA level. How, I do not know.
I suggested this a long time ago. If controling the size of Nationals is an issue, then why not have 2, and East and a West. That is how the old USS Jr. Nationals were. Now they actual have 3. And I believe that they have some sort of regional meets prior to the Nationals.
How about adding events such as 400 Free, 400 Medley and 800 Free Relay at Nationals?
Just some thoughts on the subject.
:)
I personally would not like the idea of an East and West Nationals, because I look forward to seeing people from different parts of the country when I go to Nationals. If I had to go East and Jody Welborn had to go West, we could never go head to head in the 200 *** again! Also, for a lot of the older competitors, the only time they have any competition in their age group at all is at Nationals, and they really look forward to that.
It seems to me that the size of Nationals right now is manageable. The size has been holding fairly steady for the last several years.
We may have to go to verifying NQTs at some point if it seems that the honor system is being abused, but I think for the most part we're pretty honest. Just because USA Swimming does it doesn't mean we have to, or that it's feasible for us to do it. I can foresee a verification system having a lot of administrative costs. I give a lot of time to USMS volunteering, but that's not the way I'd choose to spend my time.
On the subject of Olympic qualifying: remember, the Jamaican bobsledders started out not being competitive, using hand-me-down bobsleds, but they eventually became pretty good, and have every right to be there now. And remember "Eric the Eel"? The guy from an African nation who struggled to finish the 100 free, and thought he'd won the entire event when he received so much applause just for finishing? (He also struggled to keep his suit up because he hadn't tied the drawstring, but that's another story.) He wasn't a white South African. But he most likely is an exception. I'm sure you could count on one hand the number of black competitive swimmers in the continent of Africa. I'm not really trying to make an argument for or against enforcing qualifying for the Olympics. Just making a comment.
Meg
Originally posted by cjr
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For the most part I have made and NQT in all the events that I normally swim.
...
You don't make NQTs in men ages 40 to 44, with a 100% adult swimming background and 0% age-group swimming background.
I don't.
.) People make NQTs in USMS men 40 to 44 with a pre-USMS swimming background;
.) The USMS training is not for swimming competitions;
I want the USMS training to be for competititions, but to my sorrow, the USMS training is overwhelmingly not for competitions;
.) Starters in swimming at an adult age have physiologically less swimming potential than teenage starters:
somone joining for the first time a swimming club at age 28 -like I did- then making the Olympic Qualifying Times 'A' and 'B', that's unheard of, no matter the financial incentive you can give anyone to do it.
So, the USMS Nationals is inclusive:
.) People who make NQTs with their age-group swimming backgrounds, they get to swim more events;
.) People who don't make NQTs, but want to excel, they get to swim fewer events.
If the USMS Nationals were on NQTs only, then for people who want to excel but don't make the NQTs there should be a well developed network of smaller meets without qualifying times but run as well as the USMS Nationals.
Part of the problem is that many master clubs have more lap swimmers or exercise swimmers than those in competiton. One reason that Ion has problem finding clubs that train more for competitions. The second reason is that adults have such varying work schedules.Unlike teen swimmers that don't work full time- adults can work all kinds of different schedules and some work on the weekends. Number three, many master swimmers as Ion states body particulary those past 40 years old can't stand doing 5,000 yards to 10,000 yard workouts a day. Thus younger master swimmers and age group swimmers can handle high volumes of yardage more. Another reason why many that start at 28 plus or even into their early 50's or sometimes have a very long break of almost 30 years from school or age group swimming have difficulty cracking the 51.00 for 100 yard freestyle for men and the under 100 minute 100 yard freestyle for women.
I understand about you starting late Ion. But there are some good women and men swimmers in the older age groups that didn't start until their 40's or early 50's. One in the 60-64 age group in my state can beat me in fly or free these days. In the 30-34 age group we have a guy that can clock a 49.0 in 100 yard free and he started working out in his 20's as you did. I think that swimming as a teenager does as its advantages and in most age groups below 55 years old, the top swimmers almost all swam AAU or college or Usa swimming. As for the nationals, I think maybe we can keep them as they are now but I think we should have more smaller meets for us average adult swimmers out there.
I think that swimming should follow figure skating. In the worlds they allowed a group that can qualify by lower standards. In the United States that similar to someone that goes to Jr Nationals. But in the olympics they allowed less people to compete. The reason behind allowing more countries entries were to promote swimming and other sports in third world countries. Think of this you guys, India has a billion people but a very poor swim program and its no poorer country than China. African countries the poorest on the planet only have swimmers from South Africa that are white that can compete against the rest of the world. Unlike Track and field in order to swim half decent, you need a half decent 50 meter pool or at least a 25 meter pool. and a coach that has some background with swimming. I think that olympic swimming should allow the better swimmers and the worlds can allow the third world countries a chance to compete in order to promote swimming in other parts of the world. We train the top swimmers from Latin America and parts of Asia during their high school and college years and a few years after that. So, some of these other countries need some help too.
I believe USMS should enforce NQT's. I would still allow three event's that don't require making the NQT however I would require the competitor to have to swum the event at least once in a sanctioned meet within a year of nationals. Enforcement of NQT's would be relative easy to do by tweaking existing technology. Most sanctioned meets use Hy-Tek meet management software. Just like products have bar codes, every swim in a sanctioned event could be assigned a code that automatically would indicate the name, time, event, date, meet, age group etc. As part of the sanctioned meet reporting process these codes would be uploaded to a central web based USMS database. This is all ready done to a certain extent. Then upon entry in nationals you would need to list your code for each event you want to swim as either proof of NQT or that you have swum the event in the last year. The entry codes would then would be checked against the database. This of course would require that swimmers actually have swum the event in the recent past. It would require a little more planning of swimmers wanting to go to nationals but that's how it should be if you want to go to the top meet.:p
These two statements are in contradiction:
Originally posted by Ion Beza
You don't make NQTs in men ages 40 to 44, with a 100% adult swimming background and 0% age-group swimming background.
I don't.
...
and
Originally posted by cinc310
I understand about you starting late Ion. But there are some good women and men swimmers...
...
In the 30-34 age group we have a guy that can clock a 49.0 in 100 yard free and he started working out in his 20's as you did.
...
The one statement that I think is right is mine, and the one that I suspect is wrong is Cynthia's.
When looking at the results of the 2003 USMS Short Course Nationals for the 100 freestle, I proclaim that:
#1 John Smith 46.40 is not a late starter (he swam in college the 200 free in a fast 1:35);
#2 Paul Smith 47.05 is not a late starter (he competed in the U.S. Olympic Trials in the 80s);
#3 David Boatwright 48.01 is not a late starter;
#4 Donald Jennings 48.06 is not a late starter;
#5 Richard Schroeder 48.41 is not a late starter (he competed for U.S. in the 1984 Olympics and the 1988 Olympics);
#6 Michael Fell 48.48 is not a late starter;
#7 Vernon Rogers 48.56 is not a late starter;
#8 Brant Allen 48.71 is not a late starter;
#9 Greg Remmert 49.07 is not a late starter;
#10 Stanley Fujimoto 49.29 is not a late starter;
...
#59 Ion Beza (myself) 58.40, I am a late starter since I joined my first swimming club at age 28;
...
Similar results appear in the 2003 USMS Short Course Nationals for the 100 freestle, men ages 30 to 34.
I don't know about the instance brought up by Cynthia's post, but often late starting in swimming and subsequent amazing achievements are trumpeted by media and individuals when fooling the audiences in the style of the official story of the 2000 Olympian, Ed Moses (U.S.).
His official story wants to say that he started swimming at age 17, but conveniently in order to claim a genious swimmer doesn't account for five years of prior to that summer league swimming, and before that for swimming lessons.
The five years and lessons compound to over three years of year round swimming.
Thus his starting age compounds to less than 17.
14.
In general, I can judge that a late starter claimant is fooling, by watching the technique for flipturns and diving -which if good, are likely a hint of age group swimming-, by watching the technique in four strokes, especially the hard to learn breastroke -which if good, is likely a hint of age group swimming- and by investigating about summer league swimming which is frequently not mentioned.
In my experience, the difference between an adult starter and an age-group swimmer, is mostly in the degree of development of swimming specific VO2Max, as in blood vessels connecting swimming muscles (triceps and lats) with the lungs:
a growing age-grouper gets more blood vessels than an adult starter when both train the same amount of time.
This post is dealing once more with people who make and people who don't make NQTs in USMS for men ages 40 to 44, and my take about the value of NQTs at the USMS Nationals is again:
Originally posted by Ion Beza
...
So, the USMS Nationals is inclusive:
.) People who make NQTs with their age-group swimming backgrounds, they get to swim more events;
.) People who don't make NQTs, but want to excel, they get to swim fewer events.
...
