I’d like to start a general discussion about the “Separate but equal” rule (104.5.5C) that defines whether multiple courses used at a National championships can be considered “equal”.
Background: We typically run our SC Nationals in two courses. One of the ways in which we save a great deal of time is by having heats of the same event run concurrently in both courses if the courses are considered competitively equivalent. (Otherwise, we have a “women’s” course and a “men’s” course.)
It seems to me that in the recent past, we have considered courses “equal” even though there may have been some differences between them. (e.g. different heights for the starting blocks) The rule, as currently written, doesn’t give any specifications on how insignificant these differences need to be. The rule also allows the Championship Committee to ignore these differences if the meet timeline would run long by having separate-sex courses.
Many forum contributors have recently expressed strong feelings for having tight control and uniformity regarding competitive conditions. So, I’d like to hear what you think about this issue, particularly if you have and/or will attend Nationals.
(Note: I’m not trying to make any stand about the particular case with the upcoming Hawaii meet…I’m just wondering if we need to do something to the existing rule in the future – either by enforcing it differently or tightening it.)
Starting with the items specifically listed in rule 104.5.5C…
BULKHEAD TURNS – If one pool has a bulkhead turn, must the other pool(s) have a bulkhead turn to be considered “equal”?
TYPE OF GUTTER / BLOCKS – Do all the starting blocks in all courses have to be the same height, size, and make/model? If not, how similar can they be?
VISIBILITY OF TIMING DISPLAY – Do the scoreboards have to be the same size/make/model and do they need to be in the same relative position? If not, how similar can they be?
DEPTH OF WATER – Does the depth of the courses have to be symmetrical? (equal uniform depth or depth that is uneven but similar) Does the depth have to be similar at each turn?
…and are these other factors (not listed in the present rule) considered significant enough to render courses “unequal”?…
LANE WIDTH – Is a pool with wider lanes “unequal” to the other?
LANE LINES & FLAGS – Do the lane lines have to be the same size/diameter/number? Do the backstroke flags have to be the same size/number/height above water?
TIMING SYSTEM – Do the timing systems have to be the same model from the same manufacturer and be equally calibrated? Do the touchpads have to be the same model/size?
TEMPERATURE – If the pools are in separate basins, can they be of different temperatures? (Note: pools must be between 78-80F)
OUTDOOR ORIENTATION – If the pools are outdoors, must they be oriented in the same direction and start from the same end? (Or can we do backstroke events only when it's night or overcast?)
OPEN WATER ON SIDES – How much different can the distance/width be between the outermost lanes and the sidewalls for the courses to be “unequal”?
…finally…
THE COST OF TIME – What is an acceptable cost for ensuring that the meet is conducted on “equal playing fields”? If the meet would stretch beyond _____PM, would you relax your definition of “equal” pools in order to have an earlier finish?
I personally had no problem with the pool set up, both pools very very fast (for outside courses). I was actually relieved to see the set up after having swam at this pool last year.
My concern was that they would run both courses in the 50m pool, because of the "sloping" design on both ends, the outside lanes for both courses set up in one pool would have been much shallower than 7ft.
All in all I thought Janet & Co. ran one of the best meets I've been to in one of my favorite places on the planet.
Only one "beef", the current format for deck seeding (I can already see Phil & Matt rolling their eyes and grabbing their hair!). Being an advocate of deck seeding, I must admit I don't like the way it has been run by USMS meets I've been to.
My suggestion (again) would be to close seeding for the day at the start of warm ups (allow check in the day before) and print a heat sheet for the day so its more spectator friendly (charge a buck or two). Cleveland & AZ take note please!
interesting posts . . .
Judging in the 50 meter pool was definitely more difficult than judging in the diving well, because of the warmup lanes between the swimmers and the side walls. If the chief judge allowed S&T judges to roam the side of the pool, it would be a definite unfairness, in my opinion, and could easily explain the judging discrepancies. I do not know the judging structure of the meet in Hawaii, but well-stocked meets should have side-of-the-pool judges in addition to end-pool judges, and this would have been a problem at Hawaii because of unfairness.
Furthermore, with the longer walk needed to notify swimmers of DQ's, the 50 meter pool would be judged for a lesser amount of time.
I noticed two things that surprised me about the judging: it was very inconsistent, with some swimmers getting away with clear violations that occured throughout their stroke, and others getting the slip for single and relatively minor errors.
The second surprising thing was just how many violations there were in a field of what should be very experienced swimmers. I don't know if the cause is lax judging in most other meets, or better swimmers pushing the envelope, or what. What I noticed in particular: careless mistakes, such as underwater stroking the butterfly finish, some of the better breastrokers do a lot of dolphin kick with their toes pointing inward, both off the wall and in their regular stroke, and the rules seem to change for the more senior butterflyers.
Originally posted by matysekj
There is an additional factor that was hammered home to me last week. I swam breaststroke in all 6 events and was DQ'd in two of them for a bad kick. The same judge got me both times, and I'm convinced she was looking for it the second time after recognizing me on the blocks. Both times I was in lane 8 of the dive tank. I have not been DQ'd in an individual event since I was 8 years old. While I disagree with her interpretation, I know that it was her interpretation and there is nothing I can do about it except to improve my body position and avoid the potential for this in the future.
Jim
Sorry about your being deeqed at Nationals, but if you think that the Stroke and Turn judge was incorrect in her interpretation of the rules, you should have gone to the either the head stroke and turn judge or the referee and asked that the dq be overturned.
That official will go to the stoke and turn judge who issued the dq and ask the infamous three questions:
What did you see?
Where were you standing?
What rule was broken?
The head stroke and turn judge may agree with you and overrule the stroke and turn judge. If the head stroke and turn judge /deck ref do not agree with you, appeal to the head ref. You have already been dq'ed so there is nothing to lose.
Of course judge, by what you said, it sounds like you got dq'ed for dolphin kick in the breaststoke kick. It is hard one to overturn, but it could be that you were dragging your legs and not kicking.
While you may think that she recognized you on the block for the second dq, most of the time I dont see individuals,especially if I am at the turn end of the pool. I heard that Hawaii was short of judges and if you are looking at 5 lanes or more, it is very difficult to see individuals, (I see a bunch of swimmers- not individuals). It could have been that your kick was so distintive that it caught her eye.
michael
Another difference that I noticed between the 2 pools is that the dive pool had good non-skid touch pads - the 50 meter pool did not. It definitely affected my backstroke start.
All in all - I had a great time. The meet was well run. Could have used an extra bus or two at the time the meet was over each day. Thanks for putting up the canopies over the stands.
I saw a few gripes on the discussion forum lamenting that the meet was held in Hawaii. And I know that the census of swimmers was down. As far as I am concerned, if you have it in Hawaii again, I will be here again - notwithstanding that this one just happened to fall on my 25th wedding anniversary and I am still here in Kauai with my wife celebrating! Any excuse to come here is a good one - swim meet or otherwise.
Okay ... this should probably be a separate thread but I want to exuberantly jump on the bandwagon for night-before-check-in and heat sheets for all (yes, charge a buck or two for them by all means). There are never enough posted and the swimmers and spectators never have a clue with who is swimming when and where. It is especially confusing when one pool gets ahead of another in heats.
We are at nationals to swim, but also to cheer on our fellow competitors, teammates, friends ... and to applaud wonderful swims by people we may not even know. The spectators (God love them for sitting through these meets ... thanks mom & dad) are much more inclined to enjoy the meet if they can occupy some time watching the heats, looking at the heat sheets, and know who is swimming when, watch records fall, etc.
Even with deck entry I still noticed a few no shows in Hawaii. I'd gladly give up the occasional empty lane for the ability to know who is swimming!
- Maria
I would like to respond to the comments made regarding the officiating in Hawaii. During the four day meet I spent a good deal of time stroke and turn judging when I wasn't competing.
Each of the two courses had four S&T judges on duty. All judges "worked" from the ends of the pools, not the side. (I should note that although I learned to S&T using the sides of the pool some 25 years ago, it is no longer the custom to officiate that way in most parts of the country - maybe all.) At the starting end one judge covered lanes 1-4 and another judge covered lanes 5-8. The same situation took place at the turning end. Due to the shortage of available officials, the Starter often covered four lanes at the starting end as soon as the race was underway. Therefore there was no distinct difference in officiating between the two courses.
At least one S&T at each end of the pool had a headset so they could communicate with the deck Referee. Any violations were immediately reported. I worked the diving pool with the headset one day and actually heard a lot more violations being reported in the 50 meter pool than where I was. I, personally, did not disqualify anyone and was actually impressed at how "clean" the strokes and turns were (I was never at the starting end so I didn't judge finishes). I did see a few violations but all were called by the starting end judge because they were actually in their jurisdiction (i.e. 2 strokes underwater at the start of breastsroke).
A S&T judge cannot and should not watch one swimmer exclusively (like a spectator might) so it is possible that a stroke mistake might be made that is missed by the judge. Unfortunately we do not have the number of volunteers that you might see in the Olympics where they have one judge per lane at each end. I believe the standard at USMS nationals is one judge/4 lanes at each end. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm mistaken.
I hope this answers some of the questions that have come up. Sorry that I can't answer to Jim's concern about being DQ'd by the same person - twice. That's a bummer. The only comment I have is that in my long experience as an official I have seen that while we are "enforcing" all the stroke and turn rules, some officials will get focused in on a particular stroke infraction that they are more "sensitive" to. It never hurts to politely discuss the situation with the Referee if you think you are wrongly "accused".
All in all, I thought the meet was great fun and very well run. My sincere thanks to Janet Renner and Amy Patz along with their enthusiastic crew of volunteers.
Sally
there was a major problem with Hawaii for backstrokers... the timing pads in the 50 meter pool for 6 lanes out 8 were so slippery that most of the swimmers in my heat screwed up their starts. 2 lanes had newer pads and were much better and gave the swimmers in them an advantage. And the diving well also had new pads. I swim outside all of the time in AZ so the sun isnt much of a factor but feet slipping in a start sure is. I probably lost a half of a second!
