Testosterone and fairness

RE: Testosterone and fairness

GAM2N — Fri, 01 Aug 2025 00:16:01 GMT

Don't forget the cheating scandal of the 1996 games in Atlanta!

RE: Testosterone and fairness

Gull — Sun, 20 Jul 2025 21:10:25 GMT

Anabolic steroids. We’re talking about anabolic steroids. Which are more readily available now than they were when USMS was founded. And I am not aware of any honor system, either express or implied.

RE: Testosterone and fairness

sarah tyler — Sun, 20 Jul 2025 16:22:57 GMT

When USMS started the only thing that mattered was not lying about your age. Also, as I remember the drug issue was basically an honor system, nevermind the expense of blood tests particularly on folks who because of age or illness, etc. need to take certain drugs.

RE: Testosterone and fairness

Gull — Wed, 18 Jun 2025 11:09:00 GMT

"Our mission, dating back to the 60s, is we encourage adults to swim," Rob Butcher, executive director of Masters Swimming told the Associated Press. "Lance is a member of USMS so he is eligible to swim."

USMS is unwilling to address the use of performance enhancing drugs because the organization believes that would reduce participation.

RE: Testosterone and fairness

no200fly — Tue, 17 Jun 2025 21:55:55 GMT

I thought that USMS followed the World Aquatic doping rules. I guess my belief came from the USMS Lance Armstrong affair in 2013. At the time the USMS press release described the relationship that excluded Lance from competition as being derivative through FINA (World Aquatics) to United States Aquatic Sports to USMS. https://swimswam.com/usms-armstrong-is-not-eligible-to-race-in-usms-competitions/ I guess that just dealt with his exclusion from competition in sports within the WADA umbrella and not the adoption of WADA regulations by USMS.

With the advent of supporters for the "Enhanced Games" https://www.enhanced.com/series-b the tide may shift about the adoption of doping regulations - in the US at least. What could go wrong with that...

RE: Testosterone and fairness

Gull — Tue, 17 Jun 2025 09:55:20 GMT

Several years ago, after being told that the cost of even limited drug testing would be too high, I proposed a simple statement saying that the use of performance enhancing drugs in USMS was prohibited and was rebuffed.

RE: Testosterone and fairness

Allen Stark — Tue, 17 Jun 2025 01:48:00 GMT

practically every major sporting group has denounced the enhanced games. We anre tacitly endorsing our own enhanced games. I submit that USMS should endorse the same doping policy as US Swimming S. Further that there is a statement that competitors who set a world or national record may be tested. I think that probably an inadequate threat might at least deter some cheating

RE: Testosterone and fairness

Allen Stark — Tue, 17 Jun 2025 01:35:15 GMT

Interesting

RE: Testosterone and fairness

Gull — Mon, 16 Jun 2025 22:31:43 GMT

No such stated policy exists. The use of tobacco products on deck or in the locker rooms is, however, expressly prohibited (102.15).

RE: Testosterone and fairness

Allen Stark — Mon, 16 Jun 2025 21:47:17 GMT

I think the stated policy is to follow World Aquatics ie PEDS are not allowed, but without testing that is de facto no policy.

It's like "speed limit is 65, but no one is monitoring it and there are no consequences for speeding"

RE: Testosterone and fairness

Gull — Mon, 16 Jun 2025 20:27:25 GMT

The recent email regarding the transgender athlete policy references “USMS’s commitment to inclusion, fairness, and the integrity of competition, values that have defined our organization throughout its 55-year history.” Which begs the question, what is the organization’s policy regarding performance enhancing drugs? In point of fact, there is none.

RE: Testosterone and fairness

CAZ33 — Sun, 25 May 2025 22:50:48 GMT

Understood

RE: Testosterone and fairness

Allen Stark — Sun, 25 May 2025 19:30:48 GMT

Some people do, however, take PED’s to improve athletic performance and even to set world records. Those are the people I’m talking about who are fairly deliberately cheating

RE: Testosterone and fairness

CAZ33 — Sun, 25 May 2025 18:09:39 GMT

I don’t understand the big deal about PED use. We don’t win money- fame- sponsors, etc…. Who cares? The Olympics & kids sports? Absolutely! When you begin to see how many athletes our age take HGH & other PED’s, you begin to understand it’s for quality of life! Not to swim faster. I never go in with the mind set of ‘I’ll take this to destroy WR’s! Administered in a medically safe environment, by a knowledgeable professional- your life will greatly improve. Along with every other aspect of well being.

cheers & enjoy the swim journey!

RE: Testosterone and fairness

swimfastatlanta — Sun, 25 May 2025 16:54:13 GMT

After reading this thread, I am wondering why certain female swimmers made such a spectacle regarding our transgender master's swimmers. Perhaps we also need to test them for using performance enhancement drugs.

RE: Testosterone and fairness

YJWN7 — Sat, 24 May 2025 00:15:54 GMT

I suspect many of the 50+ top 10 swimmers @ Nationals are doping with PEDs...primarily hormone based. All of which is banned by WADA and USADA for obviously reasons (but not by US Masters) Transparency is always key. I would love if we randomly test the top 10 swimmers. Or rather, since the Enhanced Games is a popular topic these days we simply rebrand our national meets as Enhanced Masters Nationals - HA. Lastly, I agree that our individual PRs should be the focus....BUT we race against others for a reason - to win. Otherwise, we be content just doing time-trials. Great topic - thanks for adding.

RE: Testosterone and fairness

Allen Stark — Tue, 06 May 2025 23:29:34 GMT

Your situation does show the situation is complicated. I agree that there are true conditions that require treatments such as HGH. Having to use it should not preclude competing, but the need could be documented. I am more referring to people who rationalize what amounts to cheating.

Here is the problem I have with the idea of "you are only racing yourself" I am at the age that Jim Thornton referred to as "the quadratic part of the curve.".I slowed slowly and in a basically linear way until 65. Now It is unusual to have a time faster than one from the previous year, but if I am staying about the same relative to my competition then I have something to measure against.

Not exactly on topic, but in 2008-9 when the shiny suits were legal I knew my times were artificially faster, but I felt younger.

RE: Testosterone and fairness

CAZ33 — Tue, 06 May 2025 21:48:26 GMT

It’s new to the point of technology advancing exponentially in the last 3 years-

example- the HGH I bought 3 years ago- is now 1/2 as strong. I get tested constantly- I do not tread lightly. I realize I may be losing years later in life- but it’s WORTH the quality of life now! Without it now- everyday is a struggle with back pain.
a point I wanted to make earlier, but forgot is this…

there isn’t just ‘swimming’ anymore. So many factors plug into our performance! I do attribute being faster now, with training methods & all other physical activity combined.
swimming is so much more now- I really wish I’d been able to train this way from a young age.
If it isn’t legal, would you consider it before dismissing? Quality of life can be improved, along with many other aspects of life!

Cheers on your journey!

RE: Testosterone and fairness

GrantD63 — Tue, 06 May 2025 01:10:54 GMT

Not sure that use is new. I swam DIII in mid 80’s. Steroids were starting to be used and ESP among power sports like football, certain track and field events. As a Journalist, I wrote an article that got fair good coverage and the ADs at some schools were not happy about it. I opened the story with an excerpt from “Death in the Locker Room”. Suggest anyone doubting T and PED use not occurring to read that book and see to what extent - even death - some will take to win.

RE: Testosterone and fairness

swimike — Tue, 06 May 2025 00:22:38 GMT

Impressive regimen. If I could only be that disciplined. I share concerns about the use of testosterone in masters swimming. I know a couple doctors who’re putting down VERY fast swims; some male, some female. Many more women in their 60s and 70s are clearly using something as their (up to) 10 second drops in shorter 200 yard races would indicate. I would second guess myself expect that some of these swimmers had national and world records prior to these massive time drops. 60+ year old women are looking younger all the time and are swimming faster now than they were in their 30s and 40s. Some of these women have backs more muscular than Olympic rowers. Two of my female swimmer friends admit to using testosterone as hormone replacement “therapy.” I know they feel better, look better and are aging slower using testosterone, but ultimately its use is new. Seems to be a cultural phenomenon while many others around the world just age naturally, Makes me sad and frustrated that some master swimmers glorify these dirty swims.

RE: Testosterone and fairness

CAZ33 — Sun, 04 May 2025 12:27:00 GMT

Well that’s a topic I’m familiar with- and here is why. In 2008 I had a bad motorcycle accident breaking both legs my back, my scapula, my acromium, my Ulna. I was in a wheelchair for three months could not walk and the best way to rehab was to get back in the water after many many years off. My doctor at the time in Santa Monica prescribed me human groth hormone due to the multiple bone breakages. My right leg was splintered below the kneecap. After having me on human growth hormone for one year, he showed me the difference between bone density and strength. I have been on human growth hormone six months out of the year for the last 15 years. I take it because it allows me to walk and do every day chores around the house without much pain. I am in constant pain, make no mistake. But, the human growth hormone allows me to at least function on a day-to-day basis. Since getting back into swimming this year, I can tell a major difference. I am faster now at 56, than I was at 40! The human growth hormone helps me tremendously. It is not a steroid, but it definitely has strength gaining and performance enhancing properties. I love the way. It makes me feel. I love that. I can leaf blow the driveway in the yard without being in pain and having to stop five minutes in. HGH is not illegal nor do I do anything illegal with it. The question arises, what to do with the records that have been broken while on human growth hormone or steroids? That’s an answer above my pay grade.

PS- I took ‘Testosterone therapy’ in Atlanta Georgia through a licensed clinic in Buckhead. Good people, lots of knowledge. I found it to be cumbersome & heavy. It didn’t help my performance in anything. It added water weight to the tune of 20% total weight. I don’t see how anyone can gain an advantage -

here was my routine leading up to Nats- I tore both shoulders out on first race (50 Breast)

Supplements taken daily

BCAA- 30 minutes before FIRST workout

Omega 3

Vitamin D3 2000-4000 iu’s & K2 in liquid form

AG1-

Curcumin & Tumeric liquid pill

Fruits & Veggies

Avmacol-2 a day ( sulphuraphane)

Magnesium (dna repair)

Gladiator Protein shake

Barebell Protein bars

RX Bars

HYDROGENATED WATER WITH CREATINE!!!!! Huge difference

Actual Food-

STEAK (usually filet)

Fish

Bison

Wagyu beef

FRUITS

VEGETABLES

6-8 daily Eggs

Shamrock Protein shakes almost daily (no added sugars and high protein)

Attempt to consume 1.5 times protein of my 203lb body weight!!

300 grams

Hydrogenated water

Alkaline water

No sugars, No processed foods

No alcohol or drugs

48 hour fast 1 time every 60 days

24 hour fast 1 time every 60 days

16-18 hour fast 95% of the time.

Every couple of months I eat dessert- all in 24 hours….

DIET IS 90%!!!

YOGA- 2-3 times a week, 30-55 minutes each session. (Gaia app)

Core- stretch 1 hour first thing upon awakening

Swim/ lift / bands am workout

Bands- stretching - core afternoon workout..

Swim 600-1100 yards a workout depending upon daily requirement-

(I couple speed training on days I’m not lifting weights)

Stretching and maintenance on days I lift heavy and ride 10 + miles (4-5 times a week)

Heavy lifting definition-

3-4 days a week I do dryland exercises

Lat hangs- engage scapular muscles and HOLD

Lat pull downs- 2 versions

Fingertip and full grip

3 x 12 light weight

1- chest pullovers 50-70 lbs

2- triceps extensions 70 lbs

2 days a week LEGS

1- leg workout

Glute machine- leg extension- hamstring- abduction /adduction

Very light weight 100-130lbs 3x 12

Always on the stealth board core workout multiple times a day

Resistance bands x 5-8 times all day

Streamline and shoulder work multiple times a day with bands

Sliders (pain in back when used with floor mat and mimicking skating)

Electric stem unit nightly before ice

Constant work on massage with Theragun

Ice every night if not multiple times a day

PRP & Peptide therapy

Stem cell therapy has had massive effect on body and recovery.

(NeoGenix out of Charlotte)

It goes more in depth from every bullet point-

RE: Testosterone and fairness

Karl_S — Thu, 01 May 2025 14:04:09 GMT

[quote userid="2309" url="~/swimming/f/usms-topics/32865/testosterone-and-fairness"]Everyone knows the commercials about “low T” and how men can retain their “vigor” but this also referring to basically a powerful PED[/quote]

This whole business of "therapeutic" testosterone helped my to understand that the only meaningful measure of success is oneself. (See also Erik's comment.)

We see guys in their 50, 60, and beyond who come back after a prostatectomy winning high-level races, setting NRs and WRs and going times they haven't in years. Obviously that's chemically enhanced. I have had several close friends and family members go through prostate cancer and surgery. Let me tell you, it wrecks the body. Even with good nutrition and physical therapy, it effectively adds 10 years to ones physical age. Ain't no way you are sporting at an elite level after that. Now people will say that use of testosterone in these individuals is "therapeutic", which is certainly a reasonable argument, but it doesn't change the fact that they have access to a tool for recovery and muscle growth that their "healthy" competitors don't. OTOH, I don't think it's right to ban them from competition. That's like banning someone because they had cancer.

Then there are the people who take T supplements because they have "low T". Ok, one could argue that such folks are only being treated "therapeutically", but one could also argue they simply have a natural physical disadvantage, like being short, having small feet, or low lung capacity. Furthermore, heavy aerobic training tends to lower testosterone levels, so one could do an intense training block of say, distance cycling, then get a testosterone measurement and, surprise surprise, it is low, thereby justifying supplements of "therapeutic" use.

So set a lofty goal, train your best, and if you achieve it, don't let external measures tarnish your feeling of "success".

RE: Testosterone and fairness

Karl_S — Thu, 01 May 2025 13:37:39 GMT

[quote userid="102010" url="~/swimming/f/usms-topics/32865/testosterone-and-fairness/297643"]I think the best way to think of it is using yourself as the main competitor - records and titles are great but in the end - PRs -- training at the highest level and actually earning YOUR result - to me that is the core of swimming [/quote]

Yes! In the end "winning" is about getting to the best performance you could. Very often, nobody else will even know. Some of the absolutely most satisfying swims I have had in my life were in practice, where I knew I absolutely killed it. If even one friend or teammate sees and acknowledges such a great performance, its wonderful to share, but usually, one has to just savor the moment personally. Anyone who has done a lot of competitive swimming and cares about it has walked away from a swim meet totally elated, but with no publicly visible markings of success: no podium finish, no hardware, didn't make finals, didn't get a second swim, didn't score points, no pr, but nevertheless ecstatic from a hard-earned personal success.

RE: Testosterone and fairness

Erik Hochstein — Wed, 30 Apr 2025 20:37:49 GMT

See that's "old" school thinking and my mission in life and swimming is to prove this wrong :) ... I take this as a challenge not trying to be saying this doesn't happen and you may be right -- just my view and goals may prove it wrong - we shall see

RE: Testosterone and fairness

GrantD63 — Wed, 30 Apr 2025 18:48:02 GMT

Agree on times being way faster at older ages than they should be for just intense training. Whether it's hormones in food chain, PEDs, etc, something is going on outside of the pool for sure.