no mask lifeguard

RE: no mask lifeguard

Former Member — Sun, 29 Nov 2020 16:07:50 GMT

Sorry about this getting off topic, Renie. I've been on the forums for over ten years now, and this happens often! The unprofessional behavior of the guards you describe is unacceptable, to say the least. Where is management? Perhaps a complaint should be filed, because they may be completely unaware this is going on. No problem, Elaine. It happens. I am so tired of people defending rule abusers. If i were to complain, the manager would tell the offender who complained, and there would be retaliation. It's a tough situation. There are people in this state who walk their dog at night just yards from their house, alone, with a mask on. Expecting a lifeguard to follow the signs posted throughout the gym is not being "judgy" as said above.

RE: no mask lifeguard

Former Member — Sun, 29 Nov 2020 16:04:08 GMT

I really think folks are reading too much into things that aren't there, or aren't fully understanding the context of the question. I'll tell you I was very surprised at the first meet I went to for my kids when I saw lifeguards. I figured a swim meet with a dozen coaches watching every kid would be about the last place a lifeguard would be needed. I think if we were talking in person, we'd be able to get our points across and not shock anyone. I will say that, to address the OP's point, I have never seen a lifeguard who was distracted with phones, food, or whatever, while on the chair. Even if she was trying to come up with names for all 9 of the kids she was going to have with a brave dork nicknamed "Squints." I've been in dozens of indoor pool facilities, and I can honestly say that only the current one that I've been a member of for over 10 years, has guards who eat in the chair, secretly check their cell phones, etc. If I were to complain, our unprofessional managers would reveal the name of the complainant.

RE: no mask lifeguard

Elaine Krugman — Sun, 29 Nov 2020 12:00:09 GMT

No problem, Elaine. It happens. I am so tired of people defending rule abusers. If i were to complain, the manager would tell the offender who complained, and there would be retaliation. It's a tough situation. There are people in this state who walk their dog at night just yards from their house, alone, with a mask on. Expecting a lifeguard to follow the signs posted throughout the gym is not being "judgy" as said above. See 67's comment above. I agree. I also agree with what I put in bold above.

RE: no mask lifeguard

67King — Sun, 29 Nov 2020 11:07:46 GMT

QUOTE=renie;339855]I've been in dozens of indoor pool facilities, and I can honestly say that only the current one that I've been a member of for over 10 years, has guards who eat in the chair, secretly check their cell phones, etc. If I were to complain, our unprofessional managers would reveal the name of the complainant. Can you leave some sort of written, anonymous complaint? And if necessary, go above the managers' heads to complain about them?

RE: no mask lifeguard

Former Member — Sun, 29 Nov 2020 10:30:17 GMT

Thanks for the primer on drownings like I'm your 10 grade social studies teacher you're trying to impress. Nothing you quote serves as proof to your assertion (which may be correct). Since I've taken care of more drownings, by a factor of 100, than you have please try harder next time. Your bedside manner needs some work! I have great respect for lifeguards, and everything that they do to become qualified. Are they all perfect? Are all medical doctors perfect? This thread is an embarrassment.

RE: no mask lifeguard

Elaine Krugman — Sun, 29 Nov 2020 08:44:33 GMT

RE: no mask lifeguard

67King — Sun, 29 Nov 2020 07:58:51 GMT

Elaine, as an aside, you and I have annoyed the crap out of many people on the forums which is well documented. Perhaps you and I can use this as a time of reflection on our individual presentation and personalities and strive to be better and more likable...or not. I think y'all are both good folks, just overreacting to the others' positions. I second the motion for a truce :) Or else, I might have to stop this car.......

RE: no mask lifeguard

Kurt Dickson — Sun, 29 Nov 2020 07:46:21 GMT

Your bedside manner needs some work! This thread is an embarrassment. Thanks for the feedback Skuj...you're a good friend. Not sure why discussing options on how to best spend limited resources is an embarrassment but you are certainly entitled to your view. I belong to multiple pools. One has never had a lifeguard or a drowning in over 200,000 hours. Another with usually 2-5 lifeguards at any given time, has had 3 near-drownings I know of. I could make some ridiculous assertion that having lifeguards increases your likelihood of incident which is supported by my data. I stand by my assertion on aforementioned cut/paste document. Likely it's not a provable assertion. Perhaps lifeguarding is useful in certain situations and in others, better spent on drowning prevention and learning to swim programs. My YMCA closed its pool reportedly because it could not afford the heat but kept its lifeguards on staff (?). When you're spending others money it's important to know if there is value to what you're doing. As 67 has alluded to, there may be different value to different situations in lifeguarding. I would say a popular beach would be the most valuable situation if you're trying to prove efficacy. But, if you are going to quote mortality statistics for a guarded beach, in say a blue font, it would be disingenuous not to quote mortality statistics for a control beach where there is no lifeguard. Elaine, as an aside, you and I have annoyed the crap out of many people on the forums which is well documented. Perhaps you and I can use this as a time of reflection on our individual presentation and personalities and strive to be better and more likable...or not.

RE: no mask lifeguard

Former Member — Sat, 28 Nov 2020 15:59:14 GMT

There are plenty of contradictory "guidelines" since March, for sure, but in our state, we wear masks where required, whether we like it or not. This guard spends her last hour unmasked, eating in her chair, never moving from her chair except for 10 minutes trips to the bathroom. It's a joke.

RE: no mask lifeguard

Former Member — Sat, 28 Nov 2020 15:51:12 GMT

WOW! Has this gone way off topic at this point. Agree! Given the amount of precautions those of us in states with very high numbers of cases/deaths are taking, it is a slap in the face, IMO, that one person thinks they are above the rules. If you don't want to follow the Mask rules posed all over the gym, don't work there. It's as simple as that.

RE: no mask lifeguard

Kurt Dickson — Sat, 28 Nov 2020 11:22:28 GMT

This guard spends her last hour unmasked, eating in her chair, never moving from her chair except for 10 minutes trips to the bathroom. It's a joke. Well, I will agree that, in general, lifeguards are unneeded and probably a waste of money. In 23 years at LA fitness (where they do not have them) I've never heard of a drowning. I'm also fairly certain the 90 lb waif sitting stop the lifeguard stand at my local Y would have no idea or ability to help my bloated cyanotic carcass when the time comes I need her services. Still, I find it necessary to stimulate the economy and help young, hot girls and boys work on their tans.

RE: no mask lifeguard

Former Member — Sat, 28 Nov 2020 11:21:16 GMT

People are on edge. This original topic has disgressed. I have to say that I was swimming in a college pool where there was a guard on each side of the lap lanes. At the end of lap swim, a drowned man was discovered under the bulkhead. How did the guards miss that? These were excellent guards, who never kept their eyes off the pool. Todays' guards are eating, chatting, taking breaks, looking at their cell phones. It's sad. They don't realize how important their job is. One time while swimming, a handicapped man in the next lane was str4uggling, grappling with the lane line, etc. I pulled him up from under while the guard stood and watched. The topic of my post is a guard who keeps her mask off for long periods. A s woman in the lane next to her chair was cramping badly and hanging on to the wall. The guard asked if she was ok, the woman said no. The guard didn't do a thing. Well, I'm thinking that for every story where "the guard didn't do a thing", there may be 10, or 1000 stories where the guard did do what was needed. God help us if the Lifeguard Association sees this thread. This is USMS, right?

RE: no mask lifeguard

Former Member — Sat, 28 Nov 2020 11:10:54 GMT

RE: no mask lifeguard

Former Member — Sat, 28 Nov 2020 10:56:15 GMT

Wow. That's all I can say to some of the things I see in this thread, from people who should know better. (Hint: I'm as shocked as Elaine is.) What is happening to this place?

RE: no mask lifeguard

Elaine Krugman — Sat, 28 Nov 2020 10:24:30 GMT

Thanks for the primer on drownings like I'm your 10 grade social studies teacher you're trying to impress. Nothing you quote serves as proof to your assertion (which may be correct). Since I've taken care of more drownings, by a factor of 100, than you have please try harder next time. I didn't write that; the CDC did. I copy/pasted it (everything in black font) from their pdf, and only bolded what THEY wrote. I think the CDC probably knows more than you do. Try telling the CDC they need to "try harder next time"!

RE: no mask lifeguard

Allen Stark — Sat, 28 Nov 2020 09:26:56 GMT

It seems that life guards are important at Masters meets.I have seen 2 in water rescues at meets. I arrived for another meet to find it had been delayed because of a cardiac arrest of a swimmer. Another meet I left before the final event and a swimmer died in the pool

RE: no mask lifeguard

Kurt Dickson — Sat, 28 Nov 2020 09:11:24 GMT

There is no doubt that trained, professional lifeguards have had a positive effect on drowning prevention in the United States. Thanks for the primer on drownings like I'm your 10 grade social studies teacher you're trying to impress. Nothing you quote serves as proof to your assertion (which may be correct). Since I've taken care of more drownings, by a factor of 100, than you have please try harder next time.

RE: no mask lifeguard

Elaine Krugman — Sat, 28 Nov 2020 08:38:59 GMT

People are on edge. This original topic has disgressed. I have to say that I was swimming in a college pool where there was a guard on each side of the lap lanes. At the end of lap swim, a drowned man was discovered under the bulkhead. How did the guards miss that? These were excellent guards, who never kept their eyes off the pool. Todays' guards are eating, chatting, taking breaks, looking at their cell phones. It's sad. They don't realize how important their job is. One time while swimming, a handicapped man in the next lane was str4uggling, grappling with the lane line, etc. I pulled him up from under while the guard stood and watched. The topic of my post is a guard who keeps her mask off for long periods. A s woman in the lane next to her chair was cramping badly and hanging on to the wall. The guard asked if she was ok, the woman said no. The guard didn't do a thing. Sorry about this getting off topic, Renie. I've been on the forums for over ten years now, and this happens often! The unprofessional behavior of the guards you describe is unacceptable, to say the least. Where is management? Perhaps a complaint should be filed, because they may be completely unaware this is going on.

RE: no mask lifeguard

Elaine Krugman — Sat, 28 Nov 2020 08:20:25 GMT

No emotions? You regularly insult people you don't agree with and justify it in your mind by calling them stupid, dangerous, or evil. As far as your question goes, you may be right, I don't know the answer. Do you? I nearly drowned twice before I was 5 and was rescued by family. In my 47 years of competitive swimming, the only lifeguard save I have ever seen or heard of is Wendy Peffercorn but I suspect 'Squints' was faking it. I won't even go there except to stay that you DON'T know what I am thinking other than the words I write. You're personal experience at 5 years old or during your 47 years of competitive swimming is just that--- your personal experience. You could hardly compare that to the entire country. www.cdc.gov/.../LifeguardReport-a.pdf From the above report: Each year, about 4,000 people die from drowning in the United States. Drowning was a leading cause of unintentional injury death among all ages in 1998, and the second leading cause of unintentional injury death among children ages 1-14 that same year.Approximately 50-75% of drownings occur in open water such as oceans, lakes, rivers, and ponds. About 60% of drowning deaths among children occur in swimming pools. Many organizations, including the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC),routinely respond to inquiries regarding the efficacy of lifeguards in preventing drownings. Community and local government officials facing decisions about whether to begin,retain, or discontinue life guarding services typically want to know whether lifeguards are truly effective in preventing drowning and other aquatic mishaps, and whether the value of providing lifeguard protection outweighs the costs. Most drownings are preventable through a variety of strategies, one of which is to provide lifeguards in public areas where people are known to swim and to encourage people to swim in those protected areas.Some estimates indicate that the chance of drowning at a beach protected by lifeguard scan be less than one in 18 million. There is no doubt that trained, professional lifeguards have had a positive effect on drowning prevention in the United States.

RE: no mask lifeguard

Kurt Dickson — Sat, 28 Nov 2020 07:09:57 GMT

Well, I'm thinking that for every story where "the guard didn't do a thing", there may be 10, or 1000 stories where the guard did do what was needed. God help us if the Lifeguard Association sees this thread. This is USMS, right? I hope the Lifeguard Association sees this thread. Perhaps they can enlighten us all with a randomized double-blind study from the "American Journal of Lifeguarding" proving their efficacy or at least the 1000 stories you reference. I'm man enough to temper my ignorant absolute statement as long as others do the same for their requirement for lifeguard presence at all times and all places. My only point is sometimes safety is an illusion. Perhaps we pay attention to our child more when we know there is not a lifeguard around and perhaps a mask-less lifeguard 14 feet away, while likely annoying, isn't dangerous. Really no need to be judgy

RE: no mask lifeguard

67King — Sat, 28 Nov 2020 06:57:15 GMT

Well, I'm thinking that for every story where "the guard didn't do a thing", there may be 10, or 1000 stories where the guard did do what was needed. God help us if the Lifeguard Association sees this thread. This is USMS, right? I really think folks are reading too much into things that aren't there, or aren't fully understanding the context of the question. I'll tell you I was very surprised at the first meet I went to for my kids when I saw lifeguards. I figured a swim meet with a dozen coaches watching every kid would be about the last place a lifeguard would be needed. I think if we were talking in person, we'd be able to get our points across and not shock anyone. I will say that, to address the OP's point, I have never seen a lifeguard who was distracted with phones, food, or whatever, while on the chair. Even if she was trying to come up with names for all 9 of the kids she was going to have with a brave dork nicknamed "Squints."

RE: no mask lifeguard

67King — Sat, 28 Nov 2020 05:44:01 GMT

Oh, I think lifeguards are valuable, necessary, and serve a purpose. I just don't believe they are always necessary. I don't think lap swimmers or club practices are really places where they are necessary. Not knowing the details on the Emory swimmer, where was teh coach? Other swimmers? And even when they are present, they are not always going to be able to save the life of a swimmer who has pushed things too hard (e.g. www.wcvb.com/.../8230091 - one of our assistant coaches somehow knew about this, and Nathaniel indicated he was dead before he got to the wall). I think ideally, we should all have a buddy we swim with, or at least not swim in the pool alone. I do it, unfortunately, as that is when I can swim. Where I *DO* think lifeguards are absolutely beneficial are more recreational swimming. For people who are more at risk from a lack of skill or conditioning. Or if you have a large, multi lane public pool that attracts its large share of out of shape noodlers, combined with some free swim types, they are by all means a good idea. The cost thing is a real issue. There are probably fewer than a dozen people who use the pool at my Gold's. But if they put a lifeguard there...$15/hr times 19 hjours a day, plus other expenses (payroll taxes, any benefits) are going to push it well over $300/day. If smaller gyms with small lap pools had to incur that, they would probably take out the pools, or clsoe them except for the water aerobics classes.

RE: no mask lifeguard

Kurt Dickson — Sat, 28 Nov 2020 05:32:10 GMT

No emotions about it... How many lives have been saved across the country because lifeguards saved them? No emotions? You regularly insult people you don't agree with and justify it in your mind by calling them stupid, dangerous, or evil. As far as your question goes, you may be right, I don't know the answer. Do you? I nearly drowned twice before I was 5 and was rescued by family. In my 47 years of competitive swimming, the only lifeguard save I have ever seen or heard of is Wendy Peffercorn but I suspect 'Squints' was faking it.

RE: no mask lifeguard

Elaine Krugman — Sat, 28 Nov 2020 04:46:11 GMT

Elaine. I love you dearly but you have a bad habit of reading emotions or intentions into posts that are not there. Intuitively, lifeguards seem like they would help, but there is not a lot of evidence to their benefit. And, you now have two examples from me and 67 that they didn't help when they were present. I'm sure there is benefit but it may require 100s of thousands of lifeguard hours to show it. No emotions about it. When you say, "in general, lifeguards are unneeded and probably a waste of money" it is irresponsible. How many lives have been saved across the country because lifeguards saved them? Sorry, but in my opinion, it is not a waste of money to save lives. Your two examples don't convince me. Kurt, it isn't always about money. As an emergency room physician, I thought you feel that saving lives is the top priority. As for the "tragic and heartbreaking" part of my post, that was regarding the death of the 19-year-old girl died where no lifeguard was present.

RE: no mask lifeguard

Elaine Krugman — Sat, 28 Nov 2020 04:28:35 GMT

Gotta mark this thread - not often you and I don't see thigns more closely :) I stand corrected on the non-sequitur. You're right about being "tired" (under normal circumstances) wouldn't figure in. I'm not defending the lifeguard now that I know the full story. That guard deserved to be fired! I also think if the host team was notified of the girl's medical condition, it was the responsibility of the coach to notify the lifeguard. Aside from that specific situation, I still stand by my last paragraph. It was just a side note while we were on the topic. In the end, I don't really think we were in disagreement. If I had a better picture of the situation before I responded, I would have just said the host team should have notified the lifeguard, and then I would have added the last paragraph.