Freestyle quirks and problems - please help

RE: Freestyle quirks and problems - please help

Former Member — Thu, 25 Jun 2020 11:42:48 GMT

Thank you, Steve! I totally agree with you: It did indeed take me twelve years (and counting). I assumed that it was just me being a slow learner. :) Looking at the historic water temperature data for the Chiemsee, the average minimum/maximum values are 16/22 Â°C (61/72 Â°F); around 20 Â°C (68 Â°F) is what I'm counting on. For me, that temperature is okay for swimming with or without wetsuit. I will probably put mine on.

RE: Freestyle quirks and problems - please help

Former Member — Wed, 24 Jun 2020 11:37:38 GMT

I haven't been on the forum for quite a while. Today, for some reason I thought about this thread that I had started more than ten years ago. I'm still swimming, enjoying it more and more each day, and still making progress â€“ very, very slowly. :) After a couple of months of no swimming at all due to Corona, I'm now swimming in lakes, exclusively, because my favorite pool remains closed. Yesterday, my wife recorded a video from her SUP board. My stroke still leaves much to be desired but I'm quite happy. I'm swimming better than I thought I ever could when I started: Swimming at the Kollersee In September, I'll participate in my first open water race, at the Chiemsee in Germany, just for the fun of it with a couple of friends. Thank you all for encouraging me when I was struggling the most! forums.usms.org/attachment.php

RE: Freestyle quirks and problems - please help

__steve__ — Wed, 24 Jun 2020 09:20:19 GMT

Good luck with your OW swim. You look much different now compared to 2008! I bet the water there is chilly in Germany (

RE: Freestyle quirks and problems - please help

Former Member — Wed, 24 Jun 2020 07:47:16 GMT

Thank you, Elaine! :bliss: Swimming is the one thing that never fails to wipe anger and worries away, and makes me smile when I crawl â€“ no pun intended â€“ out of the water. :) I believe, my stroke mechanics are mostly okay. People tell me that my finish is too weak. I should perform it with authority. I agree, only my brain struggles with focusing on more than one problem at a time. :D

RE: Freestyle quirks and problems - please help

Elaine Krugman — Wed, 24 Jun 2020 03:12:28 GMT

Welcome back, Zonfeld! :welcome: Your wife did a nice job with the video, and your swimming looked great! :applaud: I couldn't see what was happening beneath the water with your pull, but you sure had a beautiful stroke from above. Enjoy the water, and good luck in your race!

RE: Freestyle quirks and problems - please help

Former Member — Wed, 19 Aug 2009 12:52:42 GMT

Just one suggestion about stretching. Do not stretch cold muscles. Also don't hurt yourself. I have found that most stretching is over done.

RE: Freestyle quirks and problems - please help

srcoyote — Wed, 19 Aug 2009 12:01:13 GMT

Just to throw in my two cents especially with regards to head position: 25 years ago, when I swam age group, we were encouraged to keep the waterline at our brow level which is way higher than coaches who say "keep your head lower" now view it. So when they now say keep your head low, the waterline should be somewhere near the hairline I think.. While this varies for many people, the idea is not to have the waterline at the top of your head. I think your latest video has the waterline at the top of your head still. By holding your head just a little higher, it will make it easier to breathe with a minimum of turning. Your fish tail has decreased immensely from video to video, but when your head gets too low, it requires that you lift and turn your head while breathing. You shouldn't have to lift to breathe. Soon as you do, your hips will drop and your alignment begins messing up. One visualization/sensation drill that has improved the efficiency of my stroke lately is to pretend that I am a telephone pole or that my body is a surfboard and my arms are paddles. My stroke motion mimics paddling a surfboard with my body roll feeling similar to paddling a surfboard or a telephone pole. That ensures I keep a straight line from my head all the way to my feet. Don't know if that would work for you or not. Best of luck. For one year swimming you are showing tremendous results!

RE: Freestyle quirks and problems - please help

Former Member — Wed, 19 Aug 2009 08:42:47 GMT

Thank you, Charles! I agree, I like the Swimsmooth DVDs a lot. And Paul Newsome has a very entertaining way of presenting his stuff. :) I recently had another look at his website, after George mentioned Mr. Smooth, and found it very well organized and helpful. Just FYI, I can look at the pictures in the stretching post but the links to the images of the tubing post seem to be broken. No biggie, though, I have enough to work on.

RE: Freestyle quirks and problems - please help

Former Member — Wed, 19 Aug 2009 06:33:19 GMT

George: Thank you for the warning! I will be careful. Undoubtedly, I am in much more danger of being hurt by pools without lane end markers. I sometimes forget to count my strokes and end up recovering and extending into the wall. ;) David: Thank you for your feedback and encouragement! After reading your post I looked at my footage again, a bit closer this time, and realized there is still a lot of vertical head movement and that my head is completely submerged much of the time. I wasn’t aware of the excessive amount of up and down movement—I “dig in” even deeper to prepare for the breath—and that sometimes during the stroke the back of my head is two or three inches below the surface. I will have to get that under control, but I believe that it is mainly caused by my poor implementation of the streamline: I'm trying to streamline as prescribed by Bill Boomer; your telephone pole is probably a good analogy. Richard Quick created a DVD on “Posture, Line, and Balance” and I’m paraphrasing some of that here: The idea is to get the neck and spine into one extended, straight line. When talking about extending the neck, Richard quick referred to this as “growing away the monkey bump from the tail bone”. When standing with the back against a wall, the entire spine and neck would be touching the wall. In doing so, there isn’t a lot of room for playing with the position of the head; it is pretty much predetermined. I understand the rationale and believe in the concept but the problem is that I suck at streamlining. :D I will experiment with your visualization drill and imagine myself as a paddling telephone pole. Sounds like fun, too. :) I am quite optimistic that—one day in the distant future—obtaining a decent streamline will automatically bring my head into the ideal position and keep it there.

RE: Freestyle quirks and problems - please help

Former Member — Tue, 18 Aug 2009 15:59:11 GMT

I believe I can manage to get into a streamlined position but it requires a lot of concentration and I feel very tense when my sole focus is on a good streamline; I probably hold my breath when stretching in some places and pinching in others, which isn't really helping me with the rest of my swimming. Then I am really glad I could bring this issue to your attention, because it will make a difference in your ability to implements some recommendations other members have issued. Streamline position should not require concentration or should not result into upper body muscle tensions. When you reach this point where streamlining becomes easy, your stroke will greatly benefit from it. Best simple drill to improve your streamline position? Just good old backstroke kicking with both arms in streamline position. No need for more, although you may include a short stretching routine you can do at home once in a while. I will not issue any other technical recommendation since other members have done this very well. I am amazed by the serious you put into your swimming, and also very impressed by the progress you've made in the last few years. Enjoy! Charles

RE: Freestyle quirks and problems - please help

Former Member — Tue, 18 Aug 2009 11:01:50 GMT

Great. Swimsmooth DVD package is great. Follow this. Your attitude in learning how to swim should be quoted as a good example to follow. Swimming, compared with other cyclic endurance activities, isn't just about training. Those who seem to never really improve are those who show up on the deck, jump in the pool and train. You, on the other hand, are taking the time to discover and enjoy the sensations that come along with the process. You're becoming little more *fishy* every day. Wondering about how you should move in the water will bring you to a certain level, wondering about how you should FEEL while moving will bring you further. As you increase flexibility, you will discover even better sensations. We can tell that you're becoming passionate about it, just by the way you swim. So keep going, keep feeling, you're on the right path. In case you need more inspiration for stretching and dryland exercises in general, here are some swimmers' secrets. The first post shows stretching, and the other one shows tubing exercise, so beneficial for improving very specific movements involved in swimming. (note that I wanted to bring all these pics on USMS.org, however since they have disabled the html img tag, they don't come as handy. sorry) stretching post www.tritalk.co.uk/.../viewtopic.php tubing post www.tritalk.co.uk/.../viewtopic.php Enjoy!

RE: Freestyle quirks and problems - please help

Former Member — Tue, 18 Aug 2009 06:36:12 GMT

George: Thank you! At least I'm breathing into my own armpit and not somebody else's; so things could be worse. ;) I will focus more on looking directly to the side when I breathe. Not sure why my hand does "some strange wiggling stuff" but that will probably go away when I concentrate on hand entry. Charles: Thank you for your suggestions and your kind words! I do some backstrocke kicking from time to time, mainly because I'm trying to learn how to kick properly (I don't get the "kicking from the hip" part right), and I'll do more of that and work on my streamline. And I will definitely pick up some kind of stretching routine because I see the necessity, even just in terms of injury prevention. I saw something that didn't look overly time consuming on the CD-ROM that comes with the SwimSmooth DVD package. I've always secretly envied swimmers for their ability to gracefully move through the water; one day, while I was working on my "things to do before I die" list, I figured that it probably wasn't too late for me to reach a certain skill level where I could consider myself a swimmer--and find others sharing that opinion--and so I took the first step. In the process, struggling through anxiety and embarrassment, I found out that I simply love being in the water and that a day without swimming is pretty much doomed to be a sad day. I also found out that nothing compares to the joy of feeling something "click" when swimming or drilling, or having one of those days when I'm "in the flow" and everything feels right. Basically, I unexpectedly found my passion in swimming and I'm trying to become the best swimmer I can be. :)

RE: Freestyle quirks and problems - please help

Former Member — Mon, 17 Aug 2009 16:52:10 GMT

I am afraid your head is just a little to low in the water ala following directions from some DVD. I have to admit, I'm trying to emulate something I saw in one of the swimming DVDs that I own: "Go Swim Sprint Freestyle with Roland Schoeman" It's probably hard to see any similarity watching me swim but basically that's what I am aiming at. But keeping the head low and breathing in the "trough" is what I find prescribed in most of the material that I bought, including all GoSwim DVDs that even remotely have anything to do with freestyle. I believe the advice to keep the head low is pretty common.

RE: Freestyle quirks and problems - please help

Former Member — Mon, 17 Aug 2009 16:32:15 GMT

I can just imagine what happens at speed. I noticed the tendancy at slow speed a slight fishtailing. which I can imagine gets worse at speed. I notice you are dragging water with the left hand as it exits the water and I see water flying through the air which means the left hand does not exit cleanly. I am afraid your head is just a little to low in the water ala following directions from some DVD.

RE: Freestyle quirks and problems - please help

Former Member — Mon, 17 Aug 2009 16:15:09 GMT

George: "fast speed swimming" isn't part of my vocabulary. ;) I'm having trouble swimming faster because my stroke totally falls apart that way. So even if I spend more energy, I don't move forward much faster. And since I have so much basic stuff to work on, I never tried to become better at swimming faster. I will, however, try to record and post a video of a "strong" effort so you can judge for yourself. SolarEnergy: In fact, I don't remember anybody pointing that out and I am definitely guilty of not stretching enough; the amount of stretching I do gravitates towards zero. But I acknowledge that not stretching hinders my progress and I will include it in my workout. I always assumed that core stability, i.e., letting my gut hang down, was more the issue than flexibility but in all likelihood it's both. Thank you both for your replies!

RE: Freestyle quirks and problems - please help

Former Member — Mon, 17 Aug 2009 14:56:03 GMT

I had a quick look at what other members have said so far. I won't get into deep details about stroke mechanics since it's already been covered extensively. The thing that bugged me at first sight and that still bugs me a bit is that given your execution of freestyle, I am not sure that your *basic* hydrodynamic position is sorted out. You know when you push off the wall and glide underwater by adopting a *rocket-**** position? I'd really like to see this. I'd like to remind you (I am sure you've heard it over and over) that at your level, *Stretching* is very important and should have a beneficial impact on your ability to implement several suggestions made by other members so far. The thing that bugs me with your executions (over time) is that your upper body muscles (upper back, shoulders and probably pectorals etc) seem to lack flexibility. You seem to be very strong, gifted on the muscle mass side, but I am not sure that you spend enough time is stretching as much as it is required to get this *rocket-like* perfectly hydrodynamic position. This basic feeling of being hydrodynamic should translate into a stroke that is more fluid. So my 2 pennies, stretching !!

RE: Freestyle quirks and problems - please help

Former Member — Mon, 17 Aug 2009 14:50:33 GMT

You appear to be a pretty good slow swimmer, I would prefer to look at some fast speed swimming.

RE: Freestyle quirks and problems - please help

Former Member — Mon, 17 Aug 2009 13:34:03 GMT

It's been a year since I posted a link to a video and I thought it was time to provide an update: YouTube - Swimming freestyle for stroke analysis, August 13, 2009 There is still a lot to be done and I'm only beginning to understand how many stroke defects I have to work on but nonetheless, comments are welcome. :) Thank y'all!

RE: Freestyle quirks and problems - please help

Former Member — Mon, 17 Aug 2009 10:41:42 GMT

I do not like your breathing you are an armpit breather. Don't look back to where you have been. Your right hand on entry does some strange wiggling stuff to get it into the catch position.

RE: Freestyle quirks and problems - please help

Former Member — Mon, 17 Aug 2009 10:25:05 GMT

George: I tried to swim faster here (really, I did): YouTube - Swimming freestyle for stroke analysis - increased pace, August 17, 2009 Unfortunately, I didn't get the angle quite right but you'll probably get the idea. SolarEnergy: I gathered some footage of streamlining/pushoffs but I never really focused on recording my streamline so I'm not sure this is helping: YouTube - Streamlining and Pushoffs 2008 And don't look at the turns too closely; I'm just starting. ;) I believe I can manage to get into a streamlined position but it requires a lot of concentration and I feel very tense when my sole focus is on a good streamline; I probably hold my breath when stretching in some places and pinching in others, which isn't really helping me with the rest of my swimming.

RE: Freestyle quirks and problems - please help

Former Member — Mon, 17 Aug 2009 05:55:21 GMT

SolarEnergy: In fact, I don't remember anybody pointing that out and I am definitely guilty of not stretching enough; the amount of stretching I do gravitates towards zero. But I acknowledge that not stretching hinders my progress and I will include it in my workout. I always assumed that core stability, i.e., letting my gut hang down, was more the issue than flexibility but in all likelihood it's both. At your level, the rational behind the importance of stretching has to do with Newton's Third Law of motion: "for every action force there is an equal (in size) and opposite (in direction) reaction force". Lack of flexibility in various muscle groups (especially upper body) will result into counterproductive forces being applied where it shouldn't. Let us take a simple example to illustrate this. Lack of flexibility for pectoral muscles: You are recovering the right arm, but due to lack of flexibility of right hand side pectoral muscles groups (or even both side's pectorals) the pulling action of left hand is disrupted. In other words, at your level, most technical flaws falls into either the proprioceptive category (your ability to move your body exactly as you should without the need to see yourself) or lack of flexibility category. Proprioceptive issues, you are addressing them by asking members to comment on your clip. But if a flaw is there because of flexibility issues, no matter how well the issue is explained to you, no matter how hard you try and film and look and comment, and film again etc, that won't work without correcting the flexibility issue. Fortunately, you don't have to be *that* flexible. The *rocket-like* position you can take while pushing off the walls and gliding can tell if you have at least a decent flexibility level. If when pushing off the wall, you glide perfectly streamlined with both arms over ***and behind*** the head, and that this position feels easy to keep, the the odds of seeing this flexibility transferring into your stroke is very high. This is why I stated (after having seen all your clips) that I wished I could see your glides off the wall. Because if you can not achieve this perfectly streamlined position with arms above and behind the head easily, it'll be very difficult to make substantial progresses with your stroke. Same goes for all other strokes by the way. It is this position here that I am talking about (although I find that the arms could be brought *behind* the head a little more).. YouTube - How to Swim the Freestyle Stroke : The Streamline Position for the Freestyle Stroke Another view here (after the turns)... YouTube - Flip Turn

RE: Freestyle quirks and problems - please help

Former Member — Thu, 21 Aug 2008 10:14:15 GMT

The head-up freestyle with fins (dolphin kick) helps you anchor your head in one position as your body moves. (breath forward) This at least can reduce the head motion you're experiencing, and train you to do something different. (Then you'll have something to compare to.) This drill also has other benefits, it is very good for stroke timing/rhythm, and it will really help your core stabilizers, (since you don't like gym work) I'd try this 2-3 times per week until you've noticed some adaptation. Try another video during the drill, let's see if you're doing it right. I can see how that makes sense. Thank you very much! I didn't own fins, so I got myself a pair with a short blade. My first challenge will be to learn the dolphin kick, or something that remotely resembles it. I'll upload a video once I think I'm doing something that comes close to what you described. :) Do you ever get to Belgium, I have a friend that is going to swim the English channel in Early Sept. He travels to Germany often and I know that he would be happy to help you with your swimming stroke. He is a student of mine and we worked on his stroke and he has become very proficient in his swimming. He has been helping a swimmer who lived in Germany who since has moved to S Africa. She is starting to swim very well recently. I have to admit I've never been to Belgium although it's practically around the corner. That is a very kind offer and I would very much like to meet your student whenver he's anywhere near. Thanks a lot!

RE: Freestyle quirks and problems - please help

Former Member — Thu, 21 Aug 2008 10:03:09 GMT

If you can take this just a bit further so that your rotation is about 15 degrees short of vertical instead of right on vertical you'll have the rotation about right. Looking at your head position you have it facing level which is right where you want it, but if you rotate your neck about 15 degrees toward your shoulder then you will get the same position relative to the water without your body having to rotate as far. Right now it is facing straight forward with no neck rotation. You may have read that you should rotate with your body not your neck but this isn't entirely true, and is really meant as advice for people who swim too flat and only rotate the neck. See the far right picture of Phelps that I attached to post #9, his shoulders are at about 45 degrees with his head another 45 degrees for a horizontal position. Thank you once more, Lindsay! That improvement would not have been possible without the multitude of suggestions you provided. Now that I know what to look for, I'm sure I will eventually be able to make it repeatable and take it one step further. Actually, what I read was that the distance between chin and shoulder should not change when rotating for a breath, as if there were a thread. I believe I read that in an article Emmett Hines wrote. That has already helped me because--it may be hard to believe--my over-rotation was much worse before I saw myself swimming the first time. I had this self-image of an arrow, cutting through the water and I was appalled when I saw how I actually swam. However, even though I tried focusing on the chin-shoulder connection, with the large number of stroke defects I'm dealing with, I could never correctly or fully implement what Emmett suggested. In case he ever reads this post: No, I am not a freeloader. Yes, I did buy the book and even ordered the 2nd edition! :D I think that you can learn to breath without your head having to be quite as high. I would try the breathing drills that were suggested earlier but change the emphasis to just getting comfortable with breathing with your face almost halfway submerged. Even standing in the water leaning over, or holding onto the edge rotate both your head relative to your shoulders and your shoulders to just bring your nose out of the water and breath through one side of your mouth keeping your lips closed on the other side. You may feel a little self conscious but if you can get really comfortable breathing this way I think it will help you a lot.I realize that I have to work on getting used to breathing with half my face in the water and the pool side drills seems to be just what I need. I will also work on learning the Popeye breathing. I just hope I won't copy some of the other guys I see at the pool. They practically have their entire head above the water, the surface is 3 or 4 inches away from their mouth, and they still do the Popeye thing. :) Your new fins may be helpful as you do drills as they will give you more speed and stability without as much effort as finless kicking. For example, once you are comfortable with breathing while standing bent over, or at the edge of the pool, you could try kicking with fins with one arm in front and one at your side, and just practice rotating your neck and body just far enough to get a breath. This will be easier with fins than without so maybe start with fins and then when you are really comfortable try it without them. I think that as you practice and you get really relaxed and comfortable with breathing your whole stroke will take another big step forward.I couldn't test drive my fins today because an aqua gymnastics class invaded the small pool just as I wanted to put them on. But I'm confident they will have the effect you described. I believe they will amplify something that I noticed today and which helped me quite a bit in getting a clean breath--thanks to the input of George and Coach T.: While I was swimming a few laps, trying to relax and re-create the image that you saw in the last video, I also tried keeping my finger pointing at the bottom of the pool during the pull and taking it all the way down to the thigh - the poor man's version of EVF/high elbow. This time I actually felt that I was riding higher in the water and that my forward movement was constant enough to allow me keeping my mouth closer to the water line than I normally would have risked when breathing. I even felt water rushing by my mouth and still didn't swallow any--or at least not enough to remember it or break the stroke. ;) Now it could be that I was just hallucinating and what I did looked horrible and was all wrong, but it felt very good. I'm hoping that the fins will add to that effect and let me make adjustments with less risk of getting thrown off by anxiety. My only fear (and the reason why I had not owned any fins before) is that I will get addicted to the fins and not enjoy swimming without them anymore. Again, congratulations on your huge improvement and keep us updated!Again, thank you very much for your time, patience, and willingness to share your knowledge! You cannot imagine how much you've helped me in such a short time. It would have taken me at least weeks, more likely several months to find out on my own what to work on to build my freestyle. Everybody here is very kind and I'm immensely grateful. And yes, I will keep you updated. There's so much to do still. :)

RE: Freestyle quirks and problems - please help

Former Member — Thu, 21 Aug 2008 05:12:28 GMT

Slightly less extreme, you could try swimming with the water at your hairline - as a drill not as something to achieve in your regular stroke. Again, look for what adjustments you need to make to get your head up, and then see if you can use them in your regular stroke. My head remained submerged even though I looked between 5 and 8 feet forward. But that was the adjustment that had the largest positive effect on rotation. The downside is that I lift the head very high when breathing: www.youtube.com/watch Wow, that's a tremendous improvement! Great work! Compare the before and after position while breathing in the attached image. If you can take this just a bit further so that your rotation is about 15 degrees short of vertical instead of right on vertical you'll have the rotation about right. Looking at your head position you have it facing level which is right where you want it, but if you rotate your neck about 15 degrees toward your shoulder then you will get the same position relative to the water without your body having to rotate as far. Right now it is facing straight forward with no neck rotation. You may have read that you should rotate with your body not your neck but this isn't entirely true, and is really meant as advice for people who swim too flat and only rotate the neck. See the far right picture of Phelps that I attached to post #9, his shoulders are at about 45 degrees with his head another 45 degrees for a horizontal position. I think that you can learn to breath without your head having to be quite as high. I would try the breathing drills that were suggested earlier but change the emphasis to just getting comfortable with breathing with your face almost halfway submerged. Even standing in the water leaning over, or holding onto the edge rotate both your head relative to your shoulders and your shoulders to just bring your nose out of the water and breath through one side of your mouth keeping your lips closed on the other side. You may feel a little self conscious but if you can get really comfortable breathing this way I think it will help you a lot. Your new fins may be helpful as you do drills as they will give you more speed and stability without as much effort as finless kicking. For example, once you are comfortable with breathing while standing bent over, or at the edge of the pool, you could try kicking with fins with one arm in front and one at your side, and just practice rotating your neck and body just far enough to get a breath. This will be easier with fins than without so maybe start with fins and then when you are really comfortable try it without them. I think that as you practice and you get really relaxed and comfortable with breathing your whole stroke will take another big step forward. Again, congratulations on your huge improvement and keep us updated!

RE: Freestyle quirks and problems - please help

Former Member — Wed, 20 Aug 2008 16:41:20 GMT

For only starting swimming one year ago, you look pretty good, which means you'll probably be able to improve even more with practice. I don't usually recommend this, but just as a drill, look forward as you swim, focus on keeping a straight line. Do that until you can maintain this during regular swimming. Also, try head up freestyle with dolphin kick, with fins... 4x50 on 2:00, again as a drill. Keep the head looking forward through-out the entire 50 meters. That being said, there are other very good qualities to your stroke, so don't change everything to fix a minor flaw, you'll improve just by swimming more. Core strength training could also be useful. Check this, forums.usms.org/showthread.php I'll happily accept any comments on my videos or general advice that might help me not drown and maybe even improve my stroke. :) Thank you!