So open water swimmers can now hold the boat to rest?

RE: So open water swimmers can now hold the boat to rest?

srcoyote — Wed, 18 Oct 2017 11:34:51 GMT

On the broader issue, I think mjtyson has said it best. The expectation that someone swim from point A to point B as a condition of the race is not being elitist. By way of example and elaborating on the more narrow issue of touching the ground, I often swim some OWS that are tacked on to triathlon events. The event coordinator told me that he knows there are precious few OWS in our area, and because he already has a course and equipment laid out, he adds a 3K and a 5K swim to his multi-distance triathlon/duathlon events. I swim the 5K's almost never missing one. In his format, we 5K's go off with the 1/3 Tri's. As it is a circuit, I will encounter swimmers in all tri distances including Olympic, Sprint, and Beginner. Often the shore side of the rectangular course is through hip deep water. I swim. But often I'm navigating Sprint and Beginner triathletes who are walking. It's annoying. If they're going to do that, just run on the shore. One of my favorite swims is Swim to the Moon. On that course, there is a channel that depending on lake levels can be only shin deep. At that point, there is only to stand up and walk until one can at least sink a pull deep enough to swim.

RE: So open water swimmers can now hold the boat to rest?

FindingMyInnerFish — Thu, 12 Oct 2017 12:14:56 GMT

I had something similar occur, FindingMyInnerFish, in a triathlete-organized 4k open water swim some years ago. It was a 4-loop course, and on one leg of the loop there was a sandbar that was at about mid-thigh level. Definitely swimmable, but many of the triathletes (self-identified at the start) just got up and jump-ran through that section, which was of a significant length. No DQ by the RD. Mid-thigh, I'd keep swimming. The section I encountered was more like mid-calf or less. It would be the depth where if I was close to finishing would be my signal to stand up and walk/run in. Usual instruction from coach: swim until your hand touches sand.--which pretty much happened in this particular sandbar. So I must confess, I did walk until I had swimmable water, as I was aware that the race rules didn't prohibit contact w ground or kayak escort. Walking in swimmable water actually seems counterproductive, b/c unless we're talking puddles on the road, water slows a person down (even running in puddles makes for waterlogged shoes which slows the pace). I couldn't wait for it to deepen enough for swimming. I like running and swimming--each in its own venue. :)

RE: So open water swimmers can now hold the boat to rest?

knelson — Thu, 12 Oct 2017 11:03:10 GMT

There is absolutely nothing elitist about people swimming an open water race under their own power from point A to point B. Pretty hard to argue this point. Well said.

RE: So open water swimmers can now hold the boat to rest?

mjtyson — Thu, 12 Oct 2017 06:55:15 GMT

RE: So open water swimmers can now hold the boat to rest?

Rob Copeland — Wed, 11 Oct 2017 12:00:11 GMT

First I've heard of designated rest boats. Are those different from the safety cover boats? Mike, In an event I volunteered with last month we had 6 levels of on water support, not all are specifically mandated in the rules. 1) Waterfront certified lifeguards on kayaks as first responders, 2) lifeguard supervisors on jet skis as overwatch, 3) Fire and CG rescue in motor boats with AED and medical supplied as second responders/ rapid evacuation, 4) course monitors on canoe/kayaks/paddleboards to assist swimmers and keep them on course, 5) anchored watercraft for traffic control and feeding, these boats also have AED’s and medical supplies and swim spotters, and 6) I have other accommodations for special needs swimmers. I could see designating my anchored watercraft and some of my course monitor watercrafts as rest boats. But, I’d want to review any change to the safety plan with our event water safety committee to ensure that any modifications improve event safety. As if it were an either/or situation..... Hi David! I completely agree there isn’t a 1 for 1 correlation. I’ve been running open water events for over 30 years and I still can’t tell before the swim which swimmers will experience some level of distress during the swim. And of those swimmers I don’t know before the swim which ones should be removed from the water and which ones might just need to stand up or rest for a few seconds. I guess I’d rather err on the side of safety. Apparently my last post offended some forum members. I’ve edited the post. And I apologize for my offense.

RE: So open water swimmers can now hold the boat to rest?

FindingMyInnerFish — Wed, 11 Oct 2017 02:03:30 GMT

Re standing or walking in standing depth water, a question: I've been in races in which there are sandbar or very shallow water in low tide. In one swim, the water at one point was calf deep, meaning that it was pretty much inevitable that the hand would hit the ground at every stroke. In this case, swimmers pretty much all got up and walked to deeper water (no DQ, as the race in question didn't forbid the practice). I can understand not allowing swimmers to put their feet on the ground if the water is swimmable, although different races have different rules even on that score. But what to do if the water is so shallow as not to allow much, if any, forward progress via swimming? Granted, I'm guessing that races not allowing contact w the ground likely set courses with swimmable water all the way, even if some areas are of standing depth. Thanks for clarifying. Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

RE: So open water swimmers can now hold the boat to rest?

mjtyson — Wed, 11 Oct 2017 01:46:46 GMT

True. But I rather have swimmers hanging on a designated rest boat than have my lifeguards performing active rescues on those same drowning swimmers. First I've heard of designated rest boats. Are those different from the safety cover boats? I searched throughout the LD proposed changes and didn't see anything about race directors having to designate some boats as rest boats vice safety.

RE: So open water swimmers can now hold the boat to rest?

Former Member — Tue, 10 Oct 2017 11:32:11 GMT

True. But I rather have swimmers hanging on a designated rest boat than have my lifeguards performing active rescues on those same drowning swimmers. As if it were an either/or situation.....

RE: So open water swimmers can now hold the boat to rest?

Rob Copeland — Tue, 10 Oct 2017 06:40:01 GMT

Your comment doesn't even address all the safety issues of having swimmers hanging on the side of a kayak, piloted by a person who is supposed to be in the water for the safety of all the swimmers, not just one who isn't ready yet for open water. True. But I rather have swimmers hanging on a designated rest boat than have my lifeguards performing active rescues on those same drowning swimmers. As for "cheating is OK as long as it's not for a podium finish?" It isn't cheating if it is legal.

RE: So open water swimmers can now hold the boat to rest?

mjtyson — Tue, 10 Oct 2017 04:26:15 GMT

You seem to be a "purist" when it comes to swimming. You'll probably be in the front of the pack. There are many new swimmers who would like to venture past their comfort zones. This give them that additional "scaffolding." (to use the educational parlance.) I believe the race director could qualify it as a finish if no forward progress was made. Similar to that used with the weaker Tri swimmers. They usually wean off of it quickly. I would caution sounding "elitist" and other "-its's" as well. This is not a private country club and we do want to encourage people to join, develop skills and have fun in the water as you do. For many the Open Water can be the affordable option for people of limited means yet can be intimidating. Let's use this rule change as a start off a growth mindset in the recreational activity of swimming. You don't have to be a "purist" to swim at the back of the pack. You also don't have to be a purist to hope that everyone in your age group is swimming by the same rules as you. If new swimmers need scaffolding, they can continue to practice in open water with their coach and/or other open water swimmers (who are always willing to take out newbies, I've found) until they are comfortable enough to not have to rest on the side of a boat. Your comment doesn't even address all the safety issues of having swimmers hanging on the side of a kayak, piloted by a person who is supposed to be in the water for the safety of all the swimmers, not just one who isn't ready yet for open water. And if you think an RD has the time to monitor every single swimmer hanging on the side of a kayak to determine if that kayak at that moment is making forward progress or not, I'd have to tell you your outlook is clouded with rosy goggles. What about a swim that naturally has forward progression due to naturally occurring currents? Is the kayaker banned from putting his/her paddles in the water to ensure s/he doesn't propel the swimmer forward faster than the current? Maybe in your view the RD should only accept pairs of volunteers, each pair in a kayak. One responsible for safety of the course, and the other an observer should a swimmer latch on. This kayaker could have a phone with a special app that'll track the current of the river against the movement of the kayak to determine if the unprepared swimmer is getting any forward propulsion or not. (See how silly this gets?!) There is absolutely nothing elitist about people swimming an open water race under their own power from point A to point B. You seem to be a "purist" when it comes to swimming. You'll probably be in the front of the pack. I think evmo asked the perfect question related to your comment above, which was not answered: Perhaps I misunderstand... are you saying cheating is OK as long as it's not for a podium finish?

RE: So open water swimmers can now hold the boat to rest?

Mike Scott — Sat, 07 Oct 2017 10:31:45 GMT

RE: So open water swimmers can now hold the boat to rest?

flystorms — Sat, 23 Sep 2017 06:37:17 GMT

Sumo, what a great success story. Good job helping that lady get past the fears

RE: So open water swimmers can now hold the boat to rest?

SwimDogs — Fri, 22 Sep 2017 10:41:38 GMT

This seems like a GREAT OPPORTUNITY for Race Directors to promote their events to the "purists" and swim under English Channel Rules. If an RD wants to pursue the Tri-market, so be it. But, if they want to remain true to the sport of open water swimming, they still may.

RE: So open water swimmers can now hold the boat to rest?

Sumorunner — Fri, 22 Sep 2017 09:28:20 GMT

I agree with Flystorms too. I would never consider it a success if I had to stop and hold on and it would concern me that by paying attention to me, they might be jeopardizing someone else's safety. Let me talk about one of our masters team members though. 2 yrs ago she took a couple swim clinics as a newbie. She was a competent biker and runner, but was deathly afraid of open water and wanted to try a Tri. Even in the pool she was very nervous for quite a while, could not put her face in. Fast forward 2 years, she was competent in the pool but still got panic attacks in open water. She entered a sprint Tri with a 1/2 mile swim, got panicky in the water and completed almost the entire thing back stroke. Next week at swim practice on the same lake, I told her I would swim with her and make sure she got it done right. She got it done. And the next week, and the next. By end of summer she completed IM 70.3 in Lake Placid. Never hung on to anything but her self-esteem.

RE: So open water swimmers can now hold the boat to rest?

flystorms — Fri, 22 Sep 2017 09:26:15 GMT

The more I think about it and read others thoughts, the more I don't like this rule at all. It gives a crutch to those who haven't put in the time or training to do whatever distance they're doing. It also puts those in jeopardy who actually do need a kayaker to help them out. These people are there for safety - to keep an eye on all of us. If someone hangs on the boat, they should be DQd. This isn't a safe sport where you can just stop for a moment to rest or recover. It's one where you are not only one with the elements, but you're also possibly going to be part of the food chain. I definitely have issues with the new rule and hope that RDs announce that they'll not allow it. It'll be interesting to see stats on how many declare it nor not over time.

RE: So open water swimmers can now hold the boat to rest?

Rich B. — Fri, 22 Sep 2017 08:43:53 GMT

I can imagine some instances of contention over whether a kayak engaged in forward movement while being held onto. Though perhaps I'm too pessimistic about human nature.

RE: So open water swimmers can now hold the boat to rest?

Rich B. — Fri, 22 Sep 2017 07:13:05 GMT

Agree with flystorms 1000%.

RE: So open water swimmers can now hold the boat to rest?

MSK — Thu, 21 Sep 2017 12:43:16 GMT

It would seem that any swimmer who had to stop and rest on the boat would probably not be a contender for the podium or even top ten placement so it probably doesn't really matter for rankings. Where I live, people just rely on their wetsuit buoyancy for a rest break.

RE: So open water swimmers can now hold the boat to rest?

evmo — Thu, 21 Sep 2017 06:10:00 GMT

in bicycling is there a division for stopping and putting a foot down? Open water swimming is a different sport than bicycling. in running is there a division for stopping and leaning against a tree or fence or some other object? Open water swimming is a different sport than running. It would seem that any swimmer who had to stop and rest on the boat would probably not be a contender for the podium or even top ten placement Perhaps I misunderstand... are you saying cheating is OK as long as it's not for a podium finish?

RE: So open water swimmers can now hold the boat to rest?

FindingMyInnerFish — Thu, 21 Sep 2017 05:51:28 GMT

OTOH swimmers can, too. You just can't touch a boat. You can tread water, float on your back, whatever.Well, true, although there are no boats to touch in marathons/ultras. :) Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

RE: So open water swimmers can now hold the boat to rest?

knelson — Thu, 21 Sep 2017 05:44:15 GMT

I've volunteered at ultramarathon aid stations, and runners can pause for as long as they need to OTOH swimmers can, too. You just can't touch a boat. You can tread water, float on your back, whatever.

RE: So open water swimmers can now hold the boat to rest?

FindingMyInnerFish — Thu, 21 Sep 2017 01:21:11 GMT

Kidding aside, though, a runner can technically even stop in a coffee shop for a latte during a marathon and then continue on without a DQ--not that I'd recommend this if the runner has a time limit and isn't going too fast to begin with. A DQ would, however, result if said runner, upon leaving the coffee shop, boarded a subway to the finish and crossed the finish line. In the first instance, the rest didn't result in forward progress; in the second, it did. I've volunteered at ultramarathon aid stations, and runners can pause for as long as they need to (again bearing time limits in mind). I'm not sure, but I think they can have physical contact w volunteers (such as massages). They can perhaps rest in a car as long as the car doesn't move and take them to the finish. Point being not to say there shouldn't be a rule against touching a boat, but only that marathon swimming isn't necessarily akin to other sports in how it rules re rest stops. One might say it's more bad-a $$ than many other sports. :) Sent from my SM-N910V using TapatalkNot 100 percent sure, but I think in the more elite events such as the Olympics or Olympic Trials have more stringent rules, such as not accepting aid from outside the race (such as a latte), but those runners aren't likely to stop at Starbucks during a race anyway. ;) Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

RE: So open water swimmers can now hold the boat to rest?

FindingMyInnerFish — Thu, 21 Sep 2017 01:16:39 GMT

interesting in bicycling is there a division for stopping and putting a foot down? in running is there a division for stopping and leaning against a tree or fence or some other object?Kidding aside, though, a runner can technically even stop in a coffee shop for a latte during a marathon and then continue on without a DQ--not that I'd recommend this if the runner has a time limit and isn't going too fast to begin with. A DQ would, however, result if said runner, upon leaving the coffee shop, boarded a subway to the finish and crossed the finish line. In the first instance, the rest didn't result in forward progress; in the second, it did. I've volunteered at ultramarathon aid stations, and runners can pause for as long as they need to (again bearing time limits in mind). I'm not sure, but I think they can have physical contact w volunteers (such as massages). They can perhaps rest in a car as long as the car doesn't move and take them to the finish. Point being not to say there shouldn't be a rule against touching a boat, but only that marathon swimming isn't necessarily akin to other sports in how it rules re rest stops. One might say it's more bad-a $$ than many other sports. :) Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

RE: So open water swimmers can now hold the boat to rest?

sunruh — Wed, 20 Sep 2017 02:47:52 GMT

Doesn't the logic of having a separate wetsuit division mean there should be a separate holding-on-to-the-boat division? interesting in bicycling is there a division for stopping and putting a foot down? in running is there a division for stopping and leaning against a tree or fence or some other object?

RE: So open water swimmers can now hold the boat to rest?

jpetyk — Wed, 20 Sep 2017 02:37:39 GMT

I'd wondered about that myself - but for it to work as intended, it'd have to be a post race categorization - I'd assume most swimmers do not start thinking "I'm going to grab onto the third green kayak after my hamstring cramps". Perhaps the rule should have been written for races where swimmers have dedicated kayaks? That would be logistically possible. Shorter races that have 1 kayaker per a # of swimmers would be difficult to allow boat-holding. :2cents: