https://community.usms.org/swimming/f/open-water-training-and-technique/25501/thanks-stupid-people-and-lawyersIt appears Las Vegas 10K registration delayed because new policies and $1000-1800 dollar fees to cover insurance...look for open water events to disappear. usopenwaterswimming.org/SanctionChanges.htm http://www.lv10k.com/en-USTelligent Community 12https://community.usms.org/thread/273328?ContentTypeID=1Tue, 23 Apr 2013 12:14:02 GMT3187ac58-ba85-4314-b79a-c45cd885e09a:51999254-2a34-4831-bb4b-1cd564cf765cknicholasI recently, and admittedly a bit reluctantly, insured an open water swim marathon event/challenge - and found it to be fairly painless. I don&#39;t consider myself an open water event director but as interest grew in the swims, I started taking a closer look at insurance. There are about 31 swimmers signed up to swim approximately 970 open water statute miles over a period of 4 days cumulatively. My focus has been recruiting kayaks and SUP paddlers. Fortunately we have more paddlers than swimmers which was a goal and perhaps a factor in evaluating the swim. The swims also occur during the week and start fairly early in the morning with lower boat traffic. Perhaps another consideration in the underwriters evaluation. I was asked to provide a safety plan to the insurance company which I did. It was not painful, just basics borrowed from the wisdom of other race directors and online examples of what a safety plan looks like. I was not asked to provide prop guards for boats as a condition of insurance. I found the insurance to be inexpensive, a little over $200 per day. It&#39;s unfortunate that the illusory monster of insuring an open water swimming event can be overstated so easily.<div style="clear:both;"></div>https://community.usms.org/thread/273151?ContentTypeID=1Tue, 19 Mar 2013 16:40:39 GMT3187ac58-ba85-4314-b79a-c45cd885e09a:a9e02713-0df9-4de3-84e0-16bffd4d0661Former MemberSure, why not? Did you feel in the dark before you knew of their existence? Nothing else has changed. Never heard of a mystery claim being The idea that certain types of events open USMS to excessive risk is easy to understand conceptually. I think if apples are compared to apples, the risk is not quite what has been accepted. I&#39;d like to know where other risks exist, and how they rate to the activities that are bearing the cost increases. Simple question really.<div style="clear:both;"></div>https://community.usms.org/thread/273165?ContentTypeID=1Tue, 19 Mar 2013 16:33:18 GMT3187ac58-ba85-4314-b79a-c45cd885e09a:d8ba7113-7599-4ec1-9865-6c657ee756f8Former MemberDave, If you are truly interested in insurance, coverage and risk issues, then I suggest you contact the U.S. Masters Swimming insurance broker. Contact information can be found in the 2013 Insurance Program document in the Guide to Operations <a href="http://www.usms.org/admin/lmschb/gto_ins_general.pdf">www.usms.org/.../gto_ins_general.pdf</a> swing.... and a miss. I guess its top secret. I didn&#39;t find any info in archived meeting minutes either.<div style="clear:both;"></div>https://community.usms.org/thread/273306?ContentTypeID=1Tue, 19 Mar 2013 13:12:26 GMT3187ac58-ba85-4314-b79a-c45cd885e09a:77785477-551f-4f9d-928c-9b4d89c79a0eFormer MemberIf the claims have not been resolved yet, I think it is absolutely correct keeping the details of the claims confidential. I always insisted that my clients did while their claim was pending. I understand there are many possible reasons why details may not be shared, but it would be useful to know what the nature of the claims are... especially if the result was physical injury.<div style="clear:both;"></div>https://community.usms.org/thread/273280?ContentTypeID=1Tue, 19 Mar 2013 13:04:28 GMT3187ac58-ba85-4314-b79a-c45cd885e09a:5cf39501-ac44-4d70-894e-4f37481d2d27Former MemberSure, why not? Did you feel in the dark before you knew of their existence? Nothing else has changed. After giving this much thought, I&#39;ve decided not to comment on this ridiculous statement. I&#39;ll chalk it up as a bad joke.<div style="clear:both;"></div>https://community.usms.org/thread/273237?ContentTypeID=1Tue, 19 Mar 2013 13:01:21 GMT3187ac58-ba85-4314-b79a-c45cd885e09a:c68c249b-84d8-4223-aa93-afbb7afd3b6fFormer Memberto me, Rob, Patricia Unfortunately, any information regarding claims is privileged. All I can tell you is that there were claims other than the Maui incident. I can confirm that as a result of the recent claims, the insurance premium increased 400%. Regards, Sandi Blumit I think it is important that whenever USMS brings up the increase in insurance premium that it also discloses that it is a result of the number of claims, and involved different activities and circumstances. By discussing the increase of the premium AND discussing the new surcharge and restrictions on open water events, it makes it sound as if the premium increase is solely the result of the liability arising from open water events. In fact if the insurer is charging $1,800 for each open water event, it is essentially a rider attached to the underlying policy. If that is the case then the entire increase in the premium is a result of non-open water activities. In other words you pay a premium for a policy that does not cover open water events. However, if you want coverage for a specific open water event then there is additional coverage attached to the underlying policy. For each additional event (or day of a multiday event) you pay an additional $1,800 if you want it to be covered. No $1,800 - no coverage. Pay your&#39;re $1,800 but a boat is involved in an injury accident but does not have a propeller guard, then no coverage even under the event insurance rider. Pay your $1,800 and the boat involved in the accident did not have it&#39;s own $1 million policy, then I suspect the USMS event coverage would only act as excess over $1 million. Having defended literally hundreds of liability cases, there are many reasons why a party insists on a confidentiality agreement. Some are reasonable and can make sense, but others are for, how do I say it, the purpose of covering up an underlying problem that the demanding party does not want exposed (either plaintiff or defendant). However, if the claims have been resolved and it was not a condition of the settlement, then it is just an administrative policy issue that the board can decide (and change their mind on). If the claims have not been resolved yet, I think it is absolutely correct keeping the details of the claims confidential. I always insisted that my clients did while their claim was pending.<div style="clear:both;"></div>https://community.usms.org/thread/273162?ContentTypeID=1Tue, 19 Mar 2013 08:14:13 GMT3187ac58-ba85-4314-b79a-c45cd885e09a:f833d03c-d0e5-4fa9-b5dd-0e85f32287a3Rob CopelandDave, If you are truly interested in insurance, coverage and risk issues, then I suggest you contact the U.S. Masters Swimming insurance broker. Contact information can be found in the 2013 Insurance Program document in the Guide to Operations <a href="http://www.usms.org/admin/lmschb/gto_ins_general.pdf">www.usms.org/.../gto_ins_general.pdf</a><div style="clear:both;"></div>https://community.usms.org/thread/273190?ContentTypeID=1Tue, 19 Mar 2013 06:39:17 GMT3187ac58-ba85-4314-b79a-c45cd885e09a:eac4f1e4-bc00-49b9-86ae-daecdeb50cf1Former MemberThe insurance broker didn’t say anything at all? Which one did you talk with? to me, Rob, Patricia Unfortunately, any information regarding claims is privileged. All I can tell you is that there were claims other than the Maui incident. I can confirm that as a result of the recent claims, the insurance premium increased 400%. Regards, Sandi Blumit<div style="clear:both;"></div>https://community.usms.org/thread/273236?ContentTypeID=1Tue, 19 Mar 2013 05:51:06 GMT3187ac58-ba85-4314-b79a-c45cd885e09a:566e3ba5-2e00-420f-8dd7-024bb4929742evmoThis whole discussion has been very enlightening. We have learned that there was approximately as much justification for paying for the premium increase with a surcharge on OW events as, say, paying for it with a surcharge on irishpolarbear&#39;s age group, because according to my opinion, those folks are most likely to slip on the pool deck and hit their heads. There&#39;s no publicly available data to suggest otherwise, so it must be true!<div style="clear:both;"></div>https://community.usms.org/thread/273232?ContentTypeID=1Tue, 19 Mar 2013 02:45:46 GMT3187ac58-ba85-4314-b79a-c45cd885e09a:6d9ef3a1-9ce6-45a1-bbe7-da8bc3386a7aRob CopelandDefinitely a swing…. and a miss. Thanks for swinging:thewave:<div style="clear:both;"></div>https://community.usms.org/thread/273187?ContentTypeID=1Tue, 19 Mar 2013 02:15:03 GMT3187ac58-ba85-4314-b79a-c45cd885e09a:874495d7-84c9-419e-bb8d-82f10c5b7bdfRob Copelandswing.... and a miss.The insurance broker didn&#8217;t say anything at all? Which one did you talk with?<div style="clear:both;"></div>https://community.usms.org/thread/273114?ContentTypeID=1Mon, 18 Mar 2013 14:44:06 GMT3187ac58-ba85-4314-b79a-c45cd885e09a:fb2754ac-8332-4ea4-adc6-8a344380f30eFormer MemberOW events represent by far, the most liability exposure to USMS. So we are supposed to just accept this as fact while kept in the dark about non OW claims details? Is it more likely that another swimmer will get run over before another of these mystery claims is made???? Details please.<div style="clear:both;"></div>https://community.usms.org/thread/273035?ContentTypeID=1Mon, 18 Mar 2013 12:56:20 GMT3187ac58-ba85-4314-b79a-c45cd885e09a:3b30648d-071c-4054-a10c-9ab98a419dbcMichael HeatherWould it not serve the membership to disclose at least some of the facts regarding these claims? Probably not.<div style="clear:both;"></div>https://community.usms.org/thread/273055?ContentTypeID=1Mon, 18 Mar 2013 12:35:15 GMT3187ac58-ba85-4314-b79a-c45cd885e09a:e0da4179-7ea8-4f5d-acaa-00fb1a23a3f7Former MemberDid the other 2 major claims arise from something that occurred during an open water event? If so, did they occur in the water or on land? No. So, if the Maui Channel accident is the only open-water claim and there are at least 2 other claims against USMS that have nothing to do with open-water events, why are open-water events carrying the burden of the premium increase? Or is there also an increase in cost for pool event sanctions/insurance? Or is there an increase in membership dues for 2013?<div style="clear:both;"></div>https://community.usms.org/thread/273042?ContentTypeID=1Mon, 18 Mar 2013 12:02:53 GMT3187ac58-ba85-4314-b79a-c45cd885e09a:0a066e13-ada5-4d5c-839a-b7f13fc1b480Former MemberProbably not. why not let us decide? we are adults after all.....<div style="clear:both;"></div>https://community.usms.org/thread/273127?ContentTypeID=1Mon, 18 Mar 2013 10:51:33 GMT3187ac58-ba85-4314-b79a-c45cd885e09a:66368295-943a-4f4e-838f-2cf54436243aRob CopelandSo we are supposed to just accept this as fact while kept in the dark about non OW claims details?NO, I would suggest you just accept these as the opinions of a person posting on the discussion forum. Is it more likely that another swimmer will get run over before another of these mystery claims is made????I haven&#8217;t seen any risk assessment identifying the probability of occurrence of known or unknown incidents. So at this point, I don&#8217;t believe there is a quantifiable answer to this question.<div style="clear:both;"></div>https://community.usms.org/thread/273113?ContentTypeID=1Mon, 18 Mar 2013 10:42:55 GMT3187ac58-ba85-4314-b79a-c45cd885e09a:6fa7c807-440a-4734-8445-2881d59055aaRob CopelandSo, if the Maui Channel accident is the only open-water claim and there are at least 2 other claims against USMS that have nothing to do with open-water events, why are open-water events carrying the burden of the premium increase? Or is there also an increase in cost for pool event sanctions/insurance?Actually, event hosts are carrying only a small fraction of the premium increase. According to published financial records, USMS budgeted $88,000 in 2012 for liability insurance. The approved budget for 2013 was $124,400. In December the Board increased this to $335,000. Of this $247,000 increase from 2012, I am guessing that only $30,000-$50,000 will be paid by open water event hosts. This works out to be between 12% and 20% of the increase. I got to my guess, based on the following observations and facts: 1) The $1,000 insurance surcharge is charged to the LMSC not the event host 2) Most LMSC&#8217;s have already decided to absorb half or more of the insurance surcharge 3) Some LMSC&#8217;s have decided to fully absorb the insurance surcharge with $0 passed on the the host 4) The USMS Open Water committee has received approval and funding for an Open Water Insurance Surcharge relief program to help in need LMSC&#8217;s and hosts, by providing financial assistance in the form of partial or full surcharge rebates. 5) The insurance increases I&#8217;m noting do not include anything for the the sanctioned events beyond the 75 included in the base policy, the $1,800 for each additional sanctioned open water event. Additional events may drive the host percentage down to a point of 2. 6) My numbers do not factor in insurance surcharge and sanction fees for solo swims (a note on this below) Solo swims &#8211; the main reason for singling out solo swims has more to do with member services and financials rather than any specific risk of these events. A USMS membership costs the swimmer about $50. The new real insurance cost of a sanctioned open water event is $1,800. As a swimmer getting $1,800 of value for $50 is a great deal. For the other members who are paying $1,750 for your swim, not so much. Or is there an increase in membership dues for 2013?Yes, there was a $2 per member increase in dues from 2012 to 2013.<div style="clear:both;"></div>https://community.usms.org/thread/273111?ContentTypeID=1Mon, 18 Mar 2013 10:19:54 GMT3187ac58-ba85-4314-b79a-c45cd885e09a:904435e4-2748-4f96-abc2-d38a73942a49Michael Heatherwhy not let us decide? Although I am a big proponent of communication from the Board to the members, this does not fall into the category of information that is necessary to widely share. Even the Board does not know all of the facts, nor do we need such information. USMS is an organization of and about swimming for health, the members have invested their faith in the Board to make business and policy decisions. we are adults after all..... Presumably.<div style="clear:both;"></div>https://community.usms.org/thread/273108?ContentTypeID=1Mon, 18 Mar 2013 09:59:55 GMT3187ac58-ba85-4314-b79a-c45cd885e09a:7babfbe3-b4af-49cc-95bf-8d608cc4b2baMichael HeatherSo, if the Maui Channel accident is the only open-water claim and there are at least 2 other claims against USMS that have nothing to do with open-water events, why are open-water events carrying the burden of the premium increase? Or is there also an increase in cost for pool event sanctions/insurance? Or is there an increase in membership dues for 2013? OW events represent by far, the most liability exposure to USMS, despite the comparatively tiny number of splashes. For 35 years, they have gotten a pass on representative premiums. Not any longer. The &quot;pool&quot; insurance has more than doubled as well.<div style="clear:both;"></div>https://community.usms.org/thread/273149?ContentTypeID=1Mon, 18 Mar 2013 09:22:03 GMT3187ac58-ba85-4314-b79a-c45cd885e09a:f0460ff8-d811-408f-b52e-71ff65a442a0Michael HeatherSo we are supposed to just accept this as fact while kept in the dark about non OW claims details? Sure, why not? Did you feel in the dark before you knew of their existence? Nothing else has changed. Is it more likely that another swimmer will get run over before another of these mystery claims is made???? Never heard of a mystery claim being made.<div style="clear:both;"></div>https://community.usms.org/thread/273134?ContentTypeID=1Mon, 18 Mar 2013 06:05:57 GMT3187ac58-ba85-4314-b79a-c45cd885e09a:ce40c3ec-8e11-462d-8f5d-53d63d4b4ab9Former MemberBased on this discussion, it seems I was under a mistaken impression from the outset. USMS decided to levy a surcharge on OW events, which may put some of these events out of business, because.... in the opinion of USMS leadership, &quot;OW events represent by far, the most liability exposure to USMS.&quot; Once again I have to admit I haven&#39;t taken the time to read the policy, BUT isn&#39;t this a general liability policy? Depending on the terms it might cover everything from wrongful discharge, sexual harassment, premises liability, liability for auto injury claims against USMS, and many other things having nothing to do with actually getting wet. The purpose of a general liability policy is to protect against all tortious (or alleged tortious) conduct by anyone insured under the policy.<div style="clear:both;"></div>https://community.usms.org/thread/273129?ContentTypeID=1Mon, 18 Mar 2013 05:32:24 GMT3187ac58-ba85-4314-b79a-c45cd885e09a:41c30f86-ac09-4b47-9eae-055afc74451bFormer MemberI haven’t seen any risk assessment identifying the probability of occurrence of known or unknown incidents. So at this point, I don’t believe there is a quantifiable answer to this question. I would expect that the underwriter for the insurance company did a risk analysis before calculating the premium. Underwriters are numbers people. They would have at least shared their conclusions in a narrative form with USMS if they were asked. I can&#39;t imagine trying to &#39;negotiate&#39; an insurance premium without a discussion on the risk of future claims.<div style="clear:both;"></div>https://community.usms.org/thread/273039?ContentTypeID=1Mon, 18 Mar 2013 01:24:59 GMT3187ac58-ba85-4314-b79a-c45cd885e09a:7c72ad03-1406-49a7-8402-ff10d01c39aaMichael HeatherDid the other... major claims arise from something that occurred during an open water event? No.<div style="clear:both;"></div>https://community.usms.org/thread/273128?ContentTypeID=1Mon, 18 Mar 2013 01:24:14 GMT3187ac58-ba85-4314-b79a-c45cd885e09a:40b72d7c-3d20-4591-92a5-9cf5c4be2220evmoSo, if the Maui Channel accident is the only open-water claim and there are at least 2 other claims against USMS that have nothing to do with open-water events, why are open-water events carrying the burden of the premium increase? OW events represent by far, the most liability exposure to USMS, despite the comparatively tiny number of splashes. For 35 years, they have gotten a pass on representative premiums. Not any longer. So we are supposed to just accept this as fact while kept in the dark about non OW claims details? I haven&#8217;t seen any risk assessment identifying the probability of occurrence of known or unknown incidents. So at this point, I don&#8217;t believe there is a quantifiable answer to this question. Based on this discussion, it seems I was under a mistaken impression from the outset. USMS decided to levy a surcharge on OW events, which may put some of these events out of business, because.... in the opinion of USMS leadership, &quot;OW events represent by far, the most liability exposure to USMS.&quot; This opinion is apparently not supported by any quantitative risk analysis, or specific directive from an underwriter. Did I get that right?<div style="clear:both;"></div>https://community.usms.org/thread/273003?ContentTypeID=1Sun, 17 Mar 2013 13:35:50 GMT3187ac58-ba85-4314-b79a-c45cd885e09a:066f6458-4cb4-45f0-9790-66ac435d7ea1Former MemberBecause it was not the only major claim in the last three years. It is, however, the largest. Did the other 2 major claims arise from something that occurred during an open water event? If so, did they occur in the water or on land?<div style="clear:both;"></div>