Change Your Latitude - 57* North Open Water Challenge

RE: Change Your Latitude - 57* North Open Water Challenge

Former Member — Wed, 22 Aug 2012 12:18:48 GMT

Way to go:applaud:

RE: Change Your Latitude - 57* North Open Water Challenge

Former Member — Tue, 21 Aug 2012 11:39:04 GMT

I attended from the east coast this year and CYL was an *awesome* event. I'm not sure if they can do this for everyone in the future but they picked us up at the airport and put up many of the out of town swimmers in great, low cost accommodations. I've never been so welcomed at an event. I highly encourage everyone to make the commitment to attend next year. I'm not sure of another ocean water race where you see this much snow in the mountains from the course. In the days leading up to the race workouts were great with the Sitka masters team, beautiful fly fishing and a rain forest hike. We even saw a bear from a quarter mile while fly fishing. I did the 5K this year and plan on the 10K next year as I work toward the 34K (although slightly warmer skin swim) channel.

RE: Change Your Latitude - 57* North Open Water Challenge

evmo — Mon, 20 Aug 2012 11:19:08 GMT

Kris: sounds like a resounding success indeed -- congrats! I'd love to get up there next year. And I'd be excited and honored to be first (or among the first) skin swimmers for the CYL. I did 2 hours / 6-ish miles at 54F in SF Bay earlier this year, and hardly a shiver afterward, so I think I'm ready :)

RE: Change Your Latitude - 57* North Open Water Challenge

Kris Calvin — Mon, 20 Aug 2012 08:31:57 GMT

Evmo, No skin swimmers, but one used a farmer john wetsuit, so he got a bit more skin in the game. As you well know, we would welcome skin swimmers into CYL if they have a solid track record of being cold-acclimated. Race day conditions were perfect. Water temp 57 degrees--same as our latitude--fancy that! Almost glassy calm water for 5K'ers, with a bit of ground swell making for a fun ride around the outter rocks on the 10K course, but no wind generated sea. Broken skies with a few light showers. Several out of staters went home with drawing prizes of local seafood, in addition to the salmon bake BBQ overlooking the new course. Our Texas swimmer claims she is bringing back her whole 20-person masters club next year! As our first go at this venue and even though we considered it a resounding success, there are going to be a few adjustments to next year's event to make things smoother and more convenient for everyone involved--especially our out of town guests. We really want you and the others who have participated and followed this discussion thread to be there too. Kris

RE: Change Your Latitude - 57* North Open Water Challenge

evmo — Sat, 18 Aug 2012 09:28:30 GMT

How many skin swimmers among those 28?

RE: Change Your Latitude - 57* North Open Water Challenge

Former Member — Wed, 15 Aug 2012 11:56:43 GMT

Sitka, Alaska Northernmost US Masters Swimming sanctioned open ocean race 28 swimmers for 2012 from "from all over the US, including Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Oregon, Texas, Minnesota and California" 56 awesome photos by Angela McGraw: www.facebook.com/.../ swimmer times: http://changeyourlatitude.org Congrats on the nice work Kris, Kevin and organizing crew!

RE: Change Your Latitude - 57* North Open Water Challenge

Former Member — Sun, 12 Aug 2012 16:04:49 GMT

bump ... event is scheduled for tomorrow Aug 12th 2012

RE: Change Your Latitude - 57* North Open Water Challenge

Kris Calvin — Fri, 23 Mar 2012 08:05:00 GMT

As race director Kevin, stated in another post, the rules of engagement have been debated and revised for the CYL 57*N event in Sitka, thanks to all your valuable input on this fun exchange, and with that worked out Kevin was finally able to get the registration form activated on the website. Three other items of note should be mentioned at this point. 1) We are working hard with the Sitka Maritime Society to include their annual human-powered watercraft race on the same weekend as the open water swim. We may be using the same start/finish venue and race course, though they would run their event on Saturday, while we are a go for Sunday a.m. We intend to have a joint Salmon bake dinner at the Coast Guard air station Gazebo, which overlooks the race course on Saturday night. These plans are still tentative, but it is just one more thing that will make it much more difficult for out-of-towners to pass up this opportunity. 2) This is also tentative, but we are also working with Alaska Airlines to offer a discount code for air travel to Sitka for participants and crew members. We have close connections to those folks, so we feel safe in mentioning it as another goodie for you to consider. 3) Much of this discussion thread has revolved around beautiful pictures of high (and low) mountain lakes around Sitka that some nutso folks seem to think should be swum--naked!. Well, here is my crazy proposal: If a friendly group of at least 8 USMS swimmers from out-of-town commit to the CYL event, I will take them (you) down to Redoubt Bay on our boat, Morning Mist, with kayaks and canoes, for either a one or two night stay at the USFS Redoubt Cabin, or for a day paddle/swim trip down Redoubt Lake. Currently the cabin is available for a few days after the ocean swim, but won't be for long, so time is of the essence. But wait... there's more! If that weren't enough to move you to action, we also have group day-hikes planned on some of the great trails around Sitka, including Medvijie salmon hatchery tour and hike to Medvijie Lake (See pictures above posted by Geog) OK, enough of my drivel. It is time to register.

RE: Change Your Latitude - 57* North Open Water Challenge

Kris Calvin — Fri, 10 Feb 2012 12:26:28 GMT

sorry Kris, i beat you to it by 6 days ;) But now you've taunted me into another post. I meant NOW in relative terms, inclusive of the start of this illuminating exchange. You are one heck of a researcher--guess that is part and parcel of a vetran long distance cold water swimmmer still around to spin their tales of adventure on the high seas. An end to end Redoubt swim would be quite a feat, and may be alot of "fun" for those that are into that kind of thing. I'm not at all certain if I'm part of that crowd being a softie wetsuit type and all. I didn't know Redoubt was salt water down deep. Not entirely surprising considering that most of the lake is well below sea level. Maybe in ancient history there was a "tidal reversal" but never have I heard of such a thing in my lifetime, but I'll do some checking with the old timers around Sitka starting with my Dad. One never knows. Redoubt is dear to my heart because as a kid my brothers, sister and I used to get pulled around the outlet lake in our canoes by 16# coho's on spinning gear. That was a heck of a lot more fun than being in the water naked with the fish. I also know a bit about the Native Corporation, SeaAlaska, seeking land ownership of the falls, but it is beyond comprehension that the locals would put up with SeaAlaska restricting access. I've been to some of the contentious public hearings and it would be the dumbest thing imaginable on the part of SeaAlaska from a public relations standpoint. Bears are prolific at the falls when the fish are running--but that's also the best time to be there because well, the fish are running--in August and Sept. Remember what I said about reasons we chose August for CYL? I've got lots of stories about bears at Redoubt, but that is better told in a different setting. Like safety concerns for an open water swim, there are good strategies for managing potential confrontations with Sitka's majestic brown bears. Extend your time at this year's CYL 57*N event to scope out a Redoubt swim. Of course you knew I'd bring you back around to being on topic eh? No post deletion, you're doing a great job!

RE: Change Your Latitude - 57* North Open Water Challenge

ViveBene — Fri, 10 Feb 2012 06:59:47 GMT

Geog's tour of Redoubt L is fascinating! And yes, lots of folks would be interested in a first-ever in-water tour. Takes a while to get such things in play, but the Sitka swim could be an anchor to an extended series of wonderful lake, channel, and island swims in Alaska. Good luck with further planning of Sitka!

RE: Change Your Latitude - 57* North Open Water Challenge

Former Member — Thu, 09 Feb 2012 15:24:52 GMT

Up till now sorry Kris, i beat you to it by 6 days ;) But now you've taunted me into another post. For nearly all of Aug 1988, Redoubt Lake's surface water temperature was 57 F at it's outlet. PDF of ADFG's 1988 Redoubt Lake water temperatures (table 16 page 37) Redoubt is about 10 feet above mean sea level, overflowing directly into the ocean at an outlet (map link below) consisting of a short set of rapids or falls. The falls are located about 6 miles W from the USFS A-frame cabin (available for rent $35/nt) at the NE end of Redoubt. This is the cabin that Kris mentioned in a previous post. From Sitka, the falls are SW about 15 miles by boat. 2011-07-31 by John Feikema forums.usms.org/attachment.php The low lake elevation means that storm surge or high tides cause the flow to reverse, dumping saltwater into the lake (page 7 in PDF of Appendix C of the Tongass SEIS). The saltwater, being denser, sinks. For some reason that I don't understand, the freshwater and saltwater don't mix, setting up a halocline. Even the temperature gradients that are set up by the changing seasons are not energetic enough to turnover the lake. The upper 300 ft of the lake are fresh snow melt and rainfall, but at depths from 300 down to the bottom at 870 ft, it's salt. It'd be easy to portage one's support kayaks around the falls were it not for the bears that feed at the falls on the salmon as they swim/leap up into Redoubt to spawn (read/listen to KCAW news report from 2011-07-22). I suspect there is some way to mitigate the danger without risk or harm to the bears (listen to KCAW news story from 2009-07-15). Or maybe one of the two bays right next door has a 400 yard trail. Sealaska, mentioned in this December 2011 write up, is the Native American owned corporation that is desiring ownership of the falls (1 page PDF summary from August 2011) under the 1971 Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act. A bit more on the long history of salmon at Redoubt Falls can be found on the lake's wikipedia page, on the this Forest Service webpage, and on Anniyah's blog. All that was just to say this: the entrance to Redoubt via the falls may not be an option much longer. Another approach is a well used 1.5 mile CCC trail (map) that crosses muskeg and scrub timber to reach the SW end of Redoubt, starting at Goddard Hot Springs, about 18 miles SW by boat from Sitka. Yet another approach is a 6 mile hike through old growth forest on a Forest Service trail (map) at Redoubt's NE end. The trail follows Salmon Lake Creek, which spills into the head of Silver Bay at a point about 5 miles distant by kayak from Herring Cove, or 10 miles distant by kayak from Sitka. 2009-11-22 Winter view looking back up Silver Bay towards Herring Cove from near the mouth of Salmon Creek, by Matt Goff www.sitkanature.org/.../20091122-silver_bay.jpg Or as Kris mentioned previously, there would be quick access via float plane. Here is a link to a zoomable map of Redoubt, centered on the outlet falls. To measure distances, use the upper right hand menu to select 'Make a map', then click at any point to start your tract, continue clicking to trace out your course. Distances are displayed in the lower right. To access more options, right click on any of your markers. Or Menu -> Help for a PDF. Even if I had been to Sitka before, I would still stand to be corrected on any of this. Mostly I hope this info helps someone plan out a world-first awesome 9 mile swim in a wild, pure-as-snow-melt, rare meromictic lake. Bathymetry from a Forest Service brochure forums.usms.org/attachment.php oops, i guess this whole post is off-topic. Kris and Kevin, shall I delete it?

RE: Change Your Latitude - 57* North Open Water Challenge

Kris Calvin — Thu, 09 Feb 2012 12:30:35 GMT

OK, I am starting to see the light and the double rainbow over Redoubt helps. With additional merit-based qualifications it is likely we will be able to relax our position on wet suit requirement. And, although we now understand that kayak escorts are NOT required by USMS sanctioning policy for either 5 or 10K, given our course and water temps and regardless of attire, it still may be prudent to require either a kayak/canoe escort OR a swimmer safety device like the Safe Swimmer bag. Since our event is not only an adventure swim, but also a race I'm wondering if die-hard racers would get all bent out of shape about this. Seems that if we have an option--either or--then it wouldn't be a problem, and we have substancially resolved the issue of escort craft being a limiting factor to participation. Navigation without an escort will be fun as the proposed course has only two hand-set rounding bouys, with other waypoints defined by prominent rocks, small islands and existing navigational markers. Sounds like you could pack the course chart, a GPS unit and your lunch in the swimmer bag, so another issue resolved. Furthermore, we are considering an official OOPS award for those who make a wrong turn--or maybe we will have several on hand just in case..... Everyone's feeback on this thread has been so amazingly helpful. Please take it one step further and spread the word so that we can get a handle on actual participation numbers--and plan accordingly. I'm sorry that we have not been able to post the course and description quite yet on CYL 57*N website. Kevin, our web guy/race director/BBSC coach has the team at an away meet in Anchorage.

RE: Change Your Latitude - 57* North Open Water Challenge

Kris Calvin — Thu, 09 Feb 2012 07:25:05 GMT

Off topic I know. Rain is a good thing. Nine miles end to end, Redoubt Lake with a double rainbow, which reminds of the double rainbow that I swam with in the North Sea. You know, I can almost guarantee that Redoubt Lake has never ever been swum end to end by anyone either with or without a wetsuit. Up till now I don't think anyone even considered such a bizarre concept. There are but few things left where you could be the absolute first human on earth to do. Here's your opportunity. Who's in? BTW, course maps for CYL 57*N have been posted to website. Thanks to you guys (and gals) and your links to knowlegeable sources, we now have a bunch of viable strategies to draw from that will help in resolving safety issues particular to this event. Stay tuned--are we back on topic?

RE: Change Your Latitude - 57* North Open Water Challenge

kevin@bluesteel.org — Thu, 09 Feb 2012 06:18:39 GMT

I have been doing some research with the help of the AKMS Sanction Chair about the question regarding sanctioning and our wetsuit requirement. We are revisiting the absolute requirement on wetsuits but am still thinking that we are going to strongly recommend them for our event. Any way, I haven't been able to find anything that would suggest that USMS would NOT allow a sanction of an event if the event required wetsuits. The only stipulation regarding attire is found under the Rules for Category I & II swim wear for open water events ( sections 303.7.2 & 303.7.3). It does not mention that both categories must be offered, rather it only defines what each category allows and that an event must stipulate what category is allowed or not allowed. Other ideas out there? Thanks!

RE: Change Your Latitude - 57* North Open Water Challenge

Former Member — Wed, 08 Feb 2012 17:42:43 GMT

concerning topside conditions, I subtract 3-4 degrees F and double the psychological demand if it is raining (not sunny). somebody must be measuring water temp for the public record NOAA Sitka Station 9451600 www.tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov/.../data_plot.cgi www.tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov/.../data_plot.cgi

RE: Change Your Latitude - 57* North Open Water Challenge

Former Member — Wed, 08 Feb 2012 14:57:34 GMT

Which brings up a question. Sitka has a limited number of kayaks--and that is partly the reason for limiting our participation numbers. I hate the idea of towing a blow-up toy in a race, but if it significantly improves the margin of safety, should we consider this as a requirement in lieu of or in addition to a personal kayak escort? If you have the swimmers tow a safety device, you might take a look at this one: The ISHOF Safe Swimmer (TM) Videos Rob Aquatic's review I own one and use it on a weekly basis. I don't feel it at all when I'm swimming. And the fact that it doubles as a dry bag is nice - I can carry my car keys in it.

RE: Change Your Latitude - 57* North Open Water Challenge

Former Member — Wed, 08 Feb 2012 14:30:05 GMT

www.pioneervideography.com/.../20110924Redoubt-1157.jpg Off topic I know. Rain is a good thing. Nine miles end to end, Redoubt Lake with a double rainbow, which reminds of the double rainbow that I swam with in the North Sea. Redoubt is the lake in Kris's photo a few posts back that has Camel Mountain (?) in the background. Click once on Kris's photo for a good size image, then click that image to see it at full size. ok, community service announcement over. back to race logisitcs ... (ya know, it's pretty simply. hike in, take off your clothes, put on a cap and goggles, swim, dry off, put your clothes back on, have a bite to eat, hike out)

RE: Change Your Latitude - 57* North Open Water Challenge

Former Member — Wed, 08 Feb 2012 13:40:39 GMT

RE: Change Your Latitude - 57* North Open Water Challenge

Kris Calvin — Wed, 08 Feb 2012 12:59:45 GMT

Well you beat me to it. I also found the NOAA website and the reading station is across the channel within 1/4 mile of event start/finish. Past readings on August 12 at 8:00 a.m. (anticipated start time) 2008 52.5 2009 56.8 2010 54.0 2011 53.0 Sometimes temp goes up as much as 4 degrees by late afternoon (2011) and sometimes it goes down later in the day (2009) Sorry I don't know how to shorten the link using a bookmark, but this is a nifty way to find temp data: tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov/data_menu.shtml We are working on course revisions and running them by govt. agencies as we speak. Stay tuned on CYL website for course map and segment description. My goal on this course was to make it like a single track mountain bike ride past/over varied terrain, varied sea exposure, and views both above AND below waterline. We are also working on a biological education component because there is so much going on along this route and we want to engage families/support crews every bit as much as swimmers. You really shouldn't have trouble finding a kayak escort who wants to come with you once they see whats in it for them. We're trying hard to figure out how to expand our fleet of available kayaks as that may prove to be a limiting factor.

RE: Change Your Latitude - 57* North Open Water Challenge

evmo — Wed, 08 Feb 2012 12:40:03 GMT

After all this discussion I still don't have a firm grasp of the likely water temp in Sitka on August 12, 2012...? Race description says "mid-50s" but website also mentions "Nothing like a dip in 52˚ water." I realize it's not entirely predictable, but even some basic stats would be interesting and valuable. Something along the lines of "Average of 55, range of 52-58." What was the water temp in 2010 and 2011? Whatever the lower end of that range is, that's the temperature swimmers would need to prepare for. If it's 52F, frankly there are only a handful of swimmers in the US who are capable of doing 10K in 52F water. How many of those folks would sign up for the CYL57* in a potential skin category? I'm guessing not more than 3. The point being - even if you offer a skin category (which I think you should), I'd guess almost everyone will enter the wetsuit category anyway. One idea might be to offer a dedicated kayak to every "skin" 10K participant, but limit the enrollment in that category to, say 3-5. PS, chaos, that Sweden swim looks delicious. I notice USMS member Ryan Provencher is on the 2012 enrollment list: web.me.com/.../Anmälan.html

RE: Change Your Latitude - 57* North Open Water Challenge

Kris Calvin — Wed, 08 Feb 2012 11:28:00 GMT

After all this discussion I still don't have a firm grasp of the likely water temp in Sitka on August 12, 2012...? Race description says "mid-50s" but website also mentions "Nothing like a dip in 52˚ water." I realize it's not entirely predictable, but even some basic stats would be interesting and valuable. Something along the lines of "Average of 55, range of 52-58." What was the water temp in 2010 and 2011? Claudia just informed me that when she researched her Kruzof to Sitka swim, expected water temp would be between 48 and 55 degrees F. She also said that last years event which was held several miles away out Halibut Point Rd., the temp was 52-53. I believe that was true for 2010 event also. Now, having said that, I did most of my preparation swims for both events along Japonski Is. following the course we have laid out for 2012. I did not have a thermometer with me, but the water on every occasion of my practice swims both years was noticably less cold than the course out Halibut point. I'm sure I can rustle up some goverment data on water temps in and around Japonski--we have more than our share of goverment agencies in Alaska so somebody must be measuring water temp for the public record. Will get back to you on that, and thanks for asking. Meanwhile, here is more data to chew on prior to registering with CYL. en.wikipedia.org/.../Sitka,_Alaska

RE: Change Your Latitude - 57* North Open Water Challenge

Former Member — Wed, 08 Feb 2012 07:28:45 GMT

chaos, Most interesting event in Sweden. Can't help but notice all wearing--wetsuits! What's up with that! Maybe you will educate them as you have me on this odd concept, "cold-acclimated". They also are all towing inflatable geese, with but one kayak and one power boat for the whole lot. Maybe the lawyers in Sweden aren't as effective as those we have in the good old US of A. Which brings up a question. Sitka has a limited number of kayaks--and that is partly the reason for limiting our participation numbers. I hate the idea of towing a blow-up toy in a race, but if it significantly improves the margin of safety, should we consider this as a requirement in lieu of or in addition to a personal kayak escort? Our course does cross one of several navigable channels which is often used by vessels traveling to/from Sitka harbor. And that is very different from a more controlled lake swim. Thoughts anyone? USMS requires a kayaker for each swimmer over ? 5km? or 3 miles as well as relevant permits from USCG which you'll need if you are crossing navigable channels.

RE: Change Your Latitude - 57* North Open Water Challenge

Rob Copeland — Wed, 08 Feb 2012 02:52:03 GMT

USMS requires a kayaker for each swimmer over ? 5km? or 3 miles USMS does NOT require escort craft (kayak or other) in any USMS sanctioned race. Paddlers and escort boats may be permitted by the event director, but USMS does not mandate this.

RE: Change Your Latitude - 57* North Open Water Challenge

evmo — Wed, 08 Feb 2012 02:37:18 GMT

USMS requires a kayaker for each swimmer over ? 5km? or 3 miles as well as relevant permits from USCG which you'll need if you are crossing navigable channels. I'm pretty sure the threshold is at least 10K, not 5K. I did a USMS 10K in 2010 without a paddler. For sure, they will need a USCG permit.

RE: Change Your Latitude - 57* North Open Water Challenge

Former Member — Tue, 07 Feb 2012 17:49:13 GMT

For the record, I was speaking of the 2010 version of the Elk Lake swims, when I had the pleasure of swimming next to/behind/ahead of/around you in the 5K. :) I believe Bob reported a water temp of 67-68 that day. You left out the part that it was below freezing at sunrise on the morning of the 5K. I slept in a tent and my shoes were covered in frost. But you are right the water was no colder than 66.