OW pacing

RE: OW pacing

evmo — Fri, 12 Mar 2010 09:01:40 GMT

In the pool, I've got 1000 yards before those damn flip turns start taking their toll. I suppose after a while they must take a such a toll that any time advantage from the push off is more than negated by the overall fatigue that sets in. As such I would think if you did open turns then your pool speed would actually still be equal if not faster? Dave Radcliff shares some interesting thoughts in this FloSwimming interview (the relevant section is from ~1:30-3:15). He used open turns en route to a national record in the 500 last year. I can usually stave off oxygen deficit breathing every two, but especially for older athletes, open turns may be effective in short-course distance events.

RE: OW pacing

Former Member — Thu, 11 Mar 2010 14:05:53 GMT

Every time this subject has come up, I have marvelled because my experience has been the opposite. Example. In a recent work, I did a 1000 SCY in 15:00 or 1:30 per 100 yards. Compare that to my last 5K time of 1:18:57 which translates to 1:26.6 per 100 yards. I've finally figured out why my OW pace is actually faster than my SC pool pace! (at least when the OW is a lake with no significant current and when we're talking of distance of at least 1000 yards). It all has to do with oxygen exchange. When I swim open water, they are none of those pesky turns to breathe through. When I have to turn as often as every 25 yards, my breathing practices stink and by after about 700 yards or so, I really begin to lose efficiency. I actually have a solid flip turn that served me well back in my sprinting days, but the breathing in and out of turns leaves me building up an oxygen debt that doesn't occur for me in open water when I typically follow a 2 breaths to one side / 2 breaths to the other pattern without interruption. I can tell this is occuring because lactic build up for me comes much sooner in pool swims than in open water, and eventually my turns start getting very sloppy. The difference can be up to 3 seconds per 100 over a 5K for me. I'll have to work on this should I ever want to improve in postal swims. Any ideas? (or should I jump to the main board on this one?) I feel your pain. On the main board I recently started a thread something like "flip turns are killing me". The best tip might have been about not blowing out much air during the tumble. That and some dreadful hypoxic work seems to be helping me. But that stuff is not much of an issue for open water swims. I'm not near where you are at distance wise (my longest race pool or OW is a mile) but I know where you are coming from. I did some one hour swims in OW in lakes on my own last summer and was just amazed at how relaxed and great I felt with so much oxygen. I felt like I could have gone another hour. In the pool, I've got 1000 yards before those damn flip turns start taking their toll. I suppose after a while they must take a such a toll that any time advantage from the push off is more than negated by the overall fatigue that sets in. As such I would think if you did open turns then your pool speed would actually still be equal if not faster?

RE: OW pacing

Former Member — Sat, 06 Mar 2010 17:29:38 GMT

It all has to do with oxygen exchange. That is a very interesting concept, and one that I never would have considered before. I personally don't have that problem, my OW swims are always slower paced, but for my non-swimming background triathlete friends, this could be the answer why they are faster in OW.

RE: OW pacing

Former Member — Tue, 02 Mar 2010 08:35:31 GMT

Any ideas? (or should I jump to the main board on this one?) thats not a bad thing if your focus is OW. i typically crush a training partner on the pool turns, but we are much more evenly matched in the OW. there are lots of drills to improve your SCY wall technique.... ande and fort could put a book together.

RE: OW pacing

srcoyote — Tue, 02 Mar 2010 03:16:12 GMT

Of course, don't get me started on water temp. In my last posting the 5K was the Big Shoulders which I believe was about 70 degree water this year while the 1000 yards was in a pool pushing 90.

RE: OW pacing

srcoyote — Tue, 02 Mar 2010 03:10:57 GMT

RE: OW pacing

orca1946 — Tue, 02 Mar 2010 02:36:08 GMT

WOW too many different things going on with open water , currents , wind & water temp. Not as fast as a pool - ever !

RE: OW pacing

Former Member — Tue, 23 Feb 2010 14:54:38 GMT

Anyone have a reasonably accurate approximation of how their SCY pace per 100 translates when swimming open water? Assuming calm conditions and no navigation issues I'm curious what other people would use to estimate a 5K OW time based on say a 1000 SCY time of 12:30. Any thoughts? I haven't done the 1000 free since being back in Masters (I might next month though) but my "guess" is that your time is about where I was last summer. I did two 5K's (one Intercoastal with the tide, one lake), the intercoastal I did in just over 51 minutes I think and the lake swim I did in like 62 maybe.

RE: OW pacing

skinny — Fri, 19 Feb 2010 10:16:22 GMT

Thanks SwimSister, that's helpful info!

RE: OW pacing

Former Member — Thu, 18 Feb 2010 16:10:01 GMT

It was just information. I was trying to be helpful - Skinny asked, I answered the best I could, referring to an OW event where things really WERE very easy and somehow comparable to pool swims :) This 5 km OW was in a canal and a lagoon. Navigation mostly by the nearby banks and the water was very calm. I've done OW swims in heavy current (downstream and countercurrently), huge waves and bad weather too. And you're completely right: That IS a totally different story, that you already kind of covered in your answer :) I wasn't trying to be critical. Just adding more info to the discussion. Sorry if I offended you.

RE: OW pacing

Former Member — Thu, 18 Feb 2010 12:08:55 GMT

RE: OW pacing

Former Member — Thu, 18 Feb 2010 09:41:38 GMT

Not at all - English is my second language, I'm sorry if I have expressed myself a bit clumsy :)

RE: OW pacing

Former Member — Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:31:21 GMT

Good conditions = Easy navigation, no current (going back and forth), no wind, water temperature around 19C, air around 22C. Just a thought. If you are experienced you may in fact be good at navigating. if you are not experienced you may find it daunting unless you are one of the exceptions. I find that in 19c water I swim well and fast. No problem with overheating. It is hard to say about the current. If the water is still then no current. If you are swimming with the current one way and against it the other way it is a completely different thing. Go to an airport and go on a moving side walk. Walk SLOWLY in the direction of its movement. Now walk SLOWLY in the opposite direction. The first question is did you ever even reach the other end of the second leg or were you moving backward. More than one swimmer has abandoned a race because they could not make any headway, or because they made so little headway the faded. Lesson is: swimming with and then against a current, always takes longer and sometimes forever. :-) Probably doesn't apply to your swim but it is something to keep in mind.

RE: OW pacing

Former Member — Wed, 17 Feb 2010 11:20:44 GMT

Don't know if this is any help - I swim meters, not yards :) However - it takes me a little more than 20 minutes to finish 1500 SCM, that's just above 1.20 per 100 m. In a wet suit, under good conditions, I finish 5 km OW in about 1H13, that's just below 1.28 per 100 m. Good conditions = Easy navigation, no current (going back and forth), no wind, water temperature around 19C, air around 22C.

RE: OW pacing

Former Member — Wed, 17 Feb 2010 11:15:57 GMT

RE: OW pacing

Former Member — Wed, 17 Feb 2010 08:13:01 GMT

Are you swimming at my feet or am I swimming at yours? There are too many variables to give you a useful answer. Water surface conditions, temperature of water, currents, measurement accuracy of the course distance, navigation (always a factor), salt water or fresh water, etc. And then there is the infamous: what suit will you wear. :-)