Drafting etiquette question

RE: Drafting etiquette question

Former Member — Wed, 05 Aug 2009 16:02:44 GMT

I once did the 2 – mile Newport Beach Pier to Pier with a good friend of mine that had lifeguarded there many years before. I intentionally drafted him for about 1.5 miles but put my move on him with about half mile to go, I rounded the last course buoy about three body lengths ahead of him, however he had the last laugh as the finish flag was at about 45 degree north angle from the last buoy, I swam for the finishing flag but he cut a 90 degree angle and headed straight into the beach and the ran the 75 yards north along the beach and finished ahead of me. Running is faster then swimming. As the rule was to round that last buoy there was no rule against running to the finish, so another lesson learned. The reason I mention this last night I did a local race in Denver, it was 2 – mile event that was on a ½ mile loop that forces the competitors to exit and enter the water on each loop, so you end up walking/running a few yards on the beach each loop. This was the fourth time this summer I had done this swim. With me last night was one of my master’s team mates who is one of the strongest milers in the nation in her age group and a excellent drafter in practice. On the second loop she was drafting me well, even as I weaved my way through a bunch of swim/run participants that started ahead of us. I felt I needed to break her draft or she would be with me to the end, so on my second beach exit and entry I ran about 50 yards down the beach (again no rule against it) before re-entering the water to cut my distance to the first course buoy and stepped it up on the tempo and broke the draft. As they say in NASCAR, it’s just racing.

RE: Drafting etiquette question

Former Member — Wed, 05 Aug 2009 14:42:12 GMT

Steve, Thanks for your great input. Is 10kswimmer.com your site? If so, I'd like to say thanks. It's become a regular stop for me. Edit: Answered my own question. Great site Steve.

RE: Drafting etiquette question

Former Member — Wed, 05 Aug 2009 14:32:51 GMT

The analogy to a cyclist having mechanical problems, crashing or urinating in the open water can occur. For example, elite swimmers (including Keri-Anne Payne, the silver medalist from Beijing and recent 2009 world 10K swimming champion) make great moves around the turn buoys, especially when they are in the lead and the rest of the lead pack is following them. They know that the "scrum" of swimmers behind them will slow down due to the physical contact around the turn buoy. The crush of bodies behind them - around a turn buoy, especially one that requires a 180-degree turn - is a great time to put some distance between the leader and the rest of the pack. The same situation occurs at the feeding stations where the relative positions of the swimmers always changes. Sometimes, athletes miss their feedings due to the crowd of bodies. In a series of 3 famous 16+ hour races across (and back) Lac St-Jean in Quebec, Canada during the 1980's between Claudio Plit of Argentina and Philip Rush of New Zealand, these fierce and mighty competitors tried every trick in the book to "break" each other. In another famous professional marathon race in Lake Michigan, Abo-Heif of Egypt reportedly turned off the lights on his escort boat as the race went through the night so his competitors could not see his moves which, depending on your viewpoint, can certainly be seen as a breach of etiquette. On the other hand, I have witnessed great camaraderie among the open water swimming community throughout the world despite differences in language, culture, gender, ability and competitive zeal. I believe this camaraderie - that most visibly manifests itself at the end of every open water swim when athletes are sharing their experiences with one another or during the race when one athlete follows another simply because they have no real idea what direction to swim towards - are some of the great attractions of the sport.

RE: Drafting etiquette question

Former Member — Tue, 04 Aug 2009 12:06:40 GMT

I also observed numerous swimmers at the recent Dwight Crum Pier-to-Pier Swim in Manhattan Beach, traditionally one of the most competitive races in Southern California, draft off of their opponents and then body-surf right past them at the finish. From my observations, there were only a very small number of individuals who got out of the race and were upset. Thanks for the input. However, once you are in the surf zone, I agree all bets are off. You either catch the wave and shoot forward or you don't

RE: Drafting etiquette question

Former Member — Tue, 04 Aug 2009 11:26:02 GMT

Perhaps this is an issue where there is a significant difference between the perspective of competitive elite swimmers and individuals who simply want to participate for fitness and a sense of accomplishment? Among competitive elite swimmers, it is an acquired and respected skill to draft properly. Among these swimmers, there are practiced tactics on drafting and positioning that have been researched and taught by the world's leading open water coaches. Among these swimmers, there is no shame in drafting and then sprinting to victory. In fact, that is the entire purpose of drafting and positioning properly. Among professional open water swimmers, tapping on the feet and trying to "get inside the head" of one's opponents while drafting is also an acquired and respected skill that elite athletes have no problem with (unless they lose). As others have pointed out, Maarten van der Weijden of the Netherlands and Larisa Ilchenko of Russia are among the best practioners of this skill. In fact, "The Ilchenko" is a skill well-known outside the US (refer to www.10kswimmer.com/.../great-sports-moves-ilchenko.html). Domestically, successful masters swimmers such as Gerry Rodrigues and a handful of others are renowned for effectively conserving their energy by drafting and smart positioning throughout the race - and then winning at the end. I can see how individuals do not think this is fair, but in a competitive environment, ANY and ALL swimmers have the opportunity to draft. At the professional and Olympic level, there are swimmers like the British (including silver medalist David Davies and Keri-Anne Payne) who simply like to swim in front and ignore the "scrum" behind them. At the domestic masters level, there are swimmers like Alex Kostich who also prefer to push the pace from the front in order to seal victories. Of course, pulling on feet, ankles and legs is illegal - and at the elite level and competitive domestic level - would most likely result in a swift kick or some other form of physical retaliation, yellow card or red card. But among those individuals who simply want to enjoy the race or the camaraderie of open water swimming and swim from Point A to Point B, I agree that drafting behind or alongside and then "sprinting" ahead "to win" could be seen as unsportsmanlike and in poor taste. Certainly, tapping on the feet or constantly bumping into the person ahead of you would fall into the poor etiquette category. In this case, if you were being bothered by someone, I would recommend swimming laterally - even for a few meters - and the problem could resolve itself. Alternatively - and this has occurred at the professional and competitive elite levels often - you can also simply stop dead in your tracks or do some easy backstroke until the offender has passed by you or you have switched positions on your drafting opponent. One of the most clever drafting tactics that I observed was Paul Asmuth, the 7-time professional marathon swimming champion, and his competitors "drafting" off of their row boats in the 22.5-mile race around Atlantic City. As the swimmers swam behind the row boats, the rowers would give a big pull, creating a wake that help the swimmer slightly. I also observed numerous swimmers at the recent Dwight Crum Pier-to-Pier Swim in Manhattan Beach, traditionally one of the most competitive races in Southern California, draft off of their opponents and then body-surf right past them at the finish. From my observations, there were only a very small number of individuals who got out of the race and were upset.

RE: Drafting etiquette question

Former Member — Tue, 04 Aug 2009 11:15:41 GMT

In stage racing if a rider breaks away and another rider jumps on it seems to me that there is the cutomary discussion of working together so the break away succeeds, if one rider is measurablely stronger, the weaker rider risks helping the stonger who then breaks away for the win leaving the weaker rider to be swallowed up by the peloton. This of course would be foolish. If the stronger rider wants to Ho for the win he needs to ride the weaker of his wheel even if he has been sitting on the whole time (or so it would seem) nah, different discussion. not to hijack the board for cycling, but I am talking about bad etiquette to break away when the leader crashes or is taking a piss. A bona fide breakaway is a different story Levi knows about it more than us, about 9 paragraphs down cycling.lohudblogs.com/.../ also www.csc.com/.../12171-get_up_to_speed_on_the_tour_de_france "There are no set rules on the conduct of the opposing riders, though race etiquette frowns on attacking a rider who has suffered a mechanical problem. When Lance Armstrong crashed on Luz Ardiden in the French Pyrenees in the 2003 Tour, rivals slowed down to allow the Texan to rejoin the group before resuming the day’s battle." "Etiquette calls for riders not to attack when another rider is answering nature’s call."

RE: Drafting etiquette question

Former Member — Tue, 04 Aug 2009 10:41:17 GMT

RE: Drafting etiquette question

Former Member — Tue, 04 Aug 2009 09:19:01 GMT

It is a race. Not a swim party. While it is admirable that you are concerned with etiquette, those concerns are better applied during training. I can not think of one sport where a competitor's win is discounted because they chose a winning tactic. If I have someone drafting behind me I either swim them off my feet by constantly raising the pace, or I surge by alternating slowing down and then speeding up. If this doesn't work you can just keep slowing down until the person is convinced you are "dying" and passes you. Then you just jump on their feet. It's a race, and a big part of racing is the mental part. PS I know of no USMS open water rule that bars drafting for non-pool events, although USMS rules specify 303.8 DISQUALIFICATIONS A disqualification can be made only by the referee, the starter or a judge within whose jurisdiction the infraction has been committed. Swimmers shall be disqualified if they: 303.8.1 Or their personal escort wilfully or intentionally delay the progress of another swimmer. Accidental contact, especially at the start, shall not be considered a disqualification. However, the flagrant disregard of another swimmer’s rights shall result in disqualification. 303.8.2 Fail to complete the prescribed distance or course within the preannounced time. 303.8.3 Fail to follow race rules. 303.8.4 Receive assistance by pulling on the cable or buoys at the turn or on the course. 303.8.5 Violate rules on escorted swims as described in articles 303.2.3 and 303.2.4 or receive similar assistance from any craft on the course. 303.8.6 Receive unauthorized assistance at the start or finish. 303.8.7 Violate swimwear rules. 303.8.8 Draft off another swimmer in long-distance pool events. 303.8.9 Swim in a manner in which their personal safety is jeopardized. 303.8.10—Act in an unsportsmanlike or unsafe manner within the swimming venue. Stage cycling. If a group takes off after the race leader crashes or is taking a nature break, they do not make friends in the peloton and it is seen as unsportsmanlike

RE: Drafting etiquette question

ourswimmer — Tue, 04 Aug 2009 09:02:07 GMT

I agree completely with E=H20 and Steven Munatones: If I lose to someone who drafts me for 2 miles and then sprints past me in the last 200m, I might have swum strong but I didn't swim very smart. If I am in the water to compete, I need to pay attention to my competitors. And just in case someone has snuck up on me, I should swim absolutely as hard as I can for the last 200m anyway. This situation happened to me at this year's USMS 1-mile championship. I chided myself all the way home for not having realized my competitor was behind me until she moved aside and used her far superior sprinting ability to beat me to the finish by 3 seconds. But she won fair and square, and I congratulated her on a great swim. nah, different discussion. not to hijack the board for cycling, but I am talking about bad etiquette to break away when the leader crashes or is taking a piss. A bona fide breakaway is a different story. But your initial question was about something more like a "bona fide breakaway" and less like overtaking or attacking during a leader's mechanical problem or crash. I don't know what situation in an OW swim would be analogous to a crash, or how the rest of the racers would even know about it, or even whether such situations occur often enough to have their own etiquette.

RE: Drafting etiquette question

Former Member — Fri, 31 Jul 2009 10:15:43 GMT

RE: Drafting etiquette question

Former Member — Tue, 28 Jul 2009 12:56:22 GMT

I recently watched the replay of the 2008 Olympics Men's 10k Open Water Swim. The winner, Maarten van der Weuden, sat in the pack the entire time and drafted. He sprinted at the very end and probably only led for about the last 100m. That's just the way the game is played. The other interesting thing about him was that he was sighting practically every stroke - very unusual.

RE: Drafting etiquette question

Former Member — Tue, 28 Jul 2009 12:34:52 GMT

I was just having a debate with someone, I've always heard it was bad etiquette (as opposed to against any rules, assuming draft legal) to not take your turn at the front and then take the win

RE: Drafting etiquette question

beireland — Tue, 28 Jul 2009 08:47:15 GMT

It would be poor etiquette to just draft without taking a turn. No question about that. Sorry I misunderstood. People do get annoyed and reasonably so about things like that. Hitting their feet just makes it worse....

RE: Drafting etiquette question

beireland — Tue, 28 Jul 2009 08:06:38 GMT

Its annoying to have someone draft off you, then pass you at the end. But its certainly legal unless its a no-drafting race. If you are swimming with another experienced swimmer, you may be able to work out an alternating pattern where you take turns in leading and drafting. Just don't keep hitting the feet of the person in front of you--that's not really illegal either if its accidental, but it is incredibly annoying and leads to misunderstandings.

RE: Drafting etiquette question

Animal — Tue, 28 Jul 2009 07:00:56 GMT

I believe in USMS sanctioned OW races it is against the rules. How to enforce it is another item.