Does swimming "inform" muscle growth? A dryland/weights q.

RE: Does swimming "inform" muscle growth? A dryland/weights q.

Former Member — Mon, 13 Jun 2011 05:15:41 GMT

The difference between a high level swimmer and body builder who both do deadlifts, squats, bench press etc. for low reps and ~5 sets is mostly diet (and a bit genetics). The body builder is eating excess calories and a high protein diet to gain bulk muscle and fat. They then burn off the fat before competition. The swimmer is eating less protein and and balanced calorie diet so they gain strength without much bulk. The swimmer might be eating the same or more calories as the bodybuilder but burns 2000+ calories every day in the pool. The body builder is not doing any cardio when they are trying to gain mass.

RE: Does swimming "inform" muscle growth? A dryland/weights q.

Former Member — Sun, 12 Jun 2011 15:25:04 GMT

Thanks, Bro, you have just made my day ! :D ...And people question my motivation for this pursuit ;) ;) ;) You're welcome!

RE: Does swimming "inform" muscle growth? A dryland/weights q.

Former Member — Sun, 12 Jun 2011 14:14:57 GMT

RE: Does swimming "inform" muscle growth? A dryland/weights q.

Former Member — Sun, 12 Jun 2011 14:11:31 GMT

I'd train my traps with shrugs (750lbs for reps at my peak) ... Wow, that's crazy. I cannot conceive of a 750lb deadlift, let alone shrugs. On a side note, what are trapezius muscles good for, functionally speaking? I know they help with a deadlift, but what else? Shrugging your way out of a rear naked choke? Cracking coconuts between shoulder and head?

RE: Does swimming "inform" muscle growth? A dryland/weights q.

pwolf66 — Sun, 12 Jun 2011 12:43:44 GMT

Two people, same relative build and metabolism. One does a standard weight routine as discussed above. The other does the exact same routine, but alternates workout days with sprinting in each of the strokes (say 2 per workout). Will both build in the same way? That's it. Going further to assume that genetic predispositions are identical also then the answer is: NO, they will not have identical builds. I'm not sure if you understand the underlying biology here but the most basic fact is that the human body is a marvel at adapting to physical stressors. So for the sake of your question. Situation: 2 human beings with identical biological, metabolic and physiological characteristics. Expose each body to different physical stressors, one to a purely weight based routine, the other to the same routine and a sprint based swimming routine. Result: Assuming that physical breakdown doesn't occur and that both are eating the exact same things at exactly the same time in exactly the same way and getting the same level of rest and doing all the exact same activities, etc...etc...etc..(notice how EVERYTHING has to be the same?) The 2nd individual will show greater adaptation for longer, denser muscle development due to the physiological stressors due to swimming and a slightly lower body fat percentage. Will the differences be great? More than likely not but they should be visible and measurable.

RE: Does swimming "inform" muscle growth? A dryland/weights q.

__steve__ — Sun, 12 Jun 2011 11:58:23 GMT

Some open water swimmers are built like line backers, Karl Malone was built like a body builder but his vertical jump was less than one foot. You can't categorize physiques with activities, you can only generalize, evryone's different.

RE: Does swimming "inform" muscle growth? A dryland/weights q.

Former Member — Sun, 12 Jun 2011 11:36:58 GMT

Thank you funkyfish. Interesting and informative.

RE: Does swimming "inform" muscle growth? A dryland/weights q.

mrubacky — Sun, 12 Jun 2011 11:17:21 GMT

I was more of a stick in High school but when I swam in college I look pretty close to Phelps. I took wieght lifting much more seriously in college than I did when I swam in high school. I started swimming again about a year ago and about a week before spring nationals one of my co-workers said that I didn't look like a swimmer and another correct him saying that I didn't 6 months ago but I do now. Honestly I don't think I'm anywhere close to what I looked like in college, but my upper body is much more defined than my lower body. My wieght program is the basic wieght training although lately I've been working in new dry land stuff I've read in a book that I recently gotten off of Amazon. Since I've got no desire to swim long course, I've been using this time as off-season and doing more running and cycling than swimming lately. I know this doesn't answer your question. My guess would be genitics since my son (teenager now) has the exact same build I had in High School.

RE: Does swimming "inform" muscle growth? A dryland/weights q.

Elaine Krugman — Sun, 12 Jun 2011 11:06:15 GMT

www.tierraunica.com/.../6a00e551962103883300e55419aa128834-800wi Compare that though to today's champions: 4.bp.blogspot.com/.../ryanlochte.jpg www.popstarsplus.com/.../MichaelPhelpsPicture.jpg Thanks, Bro, you have just made my day ! :D

RE: Does swimming "inform" muscle growth? A dryland/weights q.

Former Member — Sun, 12 Jun 2011 10:39:02 GMT

Alright all, think I got, for better or worse, everything I need out of this thread. Thanks to everyone, except of course the man-child who's probably still longing for father's love (or trying to forget getting too much of it, beats me). Good luck and stay fast people!

RE: Does swimming "inform" muscle growth? A dryland/weights q.

funkyfish — Sun, 12 Jun 2011 10:28:13 GMT

On a side note, what are trapezius muscles good for, functionally speaking? I know they help with a deadlift, but what else? Shrugging your way out of a rear naked choke? Cracking coconuts between shoulder and head? Carrying suitcases from one airport terminal to another Carrying Jugs for the water cooler from one side of the office building to the other Transporting lazy children up the hill to your house when they sit down in the street :D My guess is all of the above, plus being able to pull the cord to get Atlas's lawn mower started.

RE: Does swimming "inform" muscle growth? A dryland/weights q.

pendaluft — Sun, 12 Jun 2011 10:16:56 GMT

Wow, that's crazy. I cannot conceive of a 750lb deadlift, let alone shrugs. On a side note, what are trapezius muscles good for, functionally speaking? I know they help with a deadlift, but what else? Shrugging your way out of a rear naked choke? Cracking coconuts between shoulder and head? Carrying suitcases from one airport terminal to another Carrying Jugs for the water cooler from one side of the office building to the other Transporting lazy children up the hill to your house when they sit down in the street

RE: Does swimming "inform" muscle growth? A dryland/weights q.

Former Member — Sun, 12 Jun 2011 07:51:55 GMT

pwolf, you want measurable action? 2-4" more on the chest, similar amount on shoulders (circumference), without serious gain to arm or neck measurements. Wait, you want to increase your shoulder and chest measurements by several inches without increasing your arms or neck at all? YouTube - ‪I'm sorry, Dave‬‏

RE: Does swimming "inform" muscle growth? A dryland/weights q.

Former Member — Sun, 12 Jun 2011 07:47:31 GMT

Why? There is so much information on the internet about how to gain muscle. You could be using that information right now to reach you goal, whatever the hell it actually is. Afraid deadlifts are going to make your neck too big? Start wearing turtlenecks. Is he always like this? Any of you know his parents?

RE: Does swimming "inform" muscle growth? A dryland/weights q.

Former Member — Sun, 12 Jun 2011 07:46:02 GMT

Give me a routine Why? There is so much information on the internet about how to gain muscle. You could be using that information right now to reach your goal, whatever the hell it actually is. Afraid deadlifts are going to make your neck too big? Start wearing turtlenecks.

RE: Does swimming "inform" muscle growth? A dryland/weights q.

Former Member — Sun, 12 Jun 2011 07:41:27 GMT

Wow are you a hypocrite. First you blast me for going about my goals the wrong way, claiming you know the way, because you were able to get some guy from X to Y using your own advice. When I ask you to show me the guy who supposedly went from X to Y using your system, I'm yet again an idiot and going about things wrong, and your example is "merely an anecdote". So which is it? You know the way, or your way only produces anecdotes? Let me put this out there for all to hear (though at this point it seems like there are maybe 4 people total in this conversation). Show me, with resultant pics, a routine that increases one's upper back, shoulders, and chest without simultaneously building oversized tris, bis, neck, and traps. That is the goal. pwolf, you want measurable action? 2-4" more on the chest, similar amount on shoulders (circumference), without serious gain to arm or neck measurements. The pics I've provided were the target goal, which show exactly this. Give me a routine, I don't care if the only water it involves is the sweat produced. But give me something with evidence. Pics. Maybe something you did, maybe something you recommended to someone else. Don't dismiss your experience as "anecdotal" when it's inconvenient and you're pressed for proof. To date, the only consistently built people I've seen along these lines have been swimmers. That's why I'm here. If I'm 100% wrong and this is not the way, show me the right way and back it up with something for me to see.

RE: Does swimming "inform" muscle growth? A dryland/weights q.

funkyfish — Sun, 12 Jun 2011 07:31:48 GMT

Show me, with resultant pics, a routine that increases one's upper back, shoulders, and chest without simultaneously building oversized tris, bis, neck, and traps. That is the goal. pwolf, you want measurable action? 2-4" more on the chest, similar amount on shoulders (circumference), without serious gain to arm or neck measurements Kind of a curious thread. My :2cents:: Don't want to be discouraging, but if you don't have the genetics to achieve the "shape" you're after, you're probably not going to achieve it, no matter what type of routine you do or what muscles you focus on or neglect. Peoples body types will respond to stimulus, but outside of increasing the size of the muscle (and sometimes this doesn't even occur), you will not change the shape of that muscle. Some bodybuilders have quads that are connected very low on the upper leg, it looks like their thighs hang over their knees, some have really peaked biceps that are the envy of others, and some have super-thick traps that almost look like a second pair of shoulders. Whether you're blessed (or cursed) with these genes, you get what you get, and you can possibly modify the size, but not the shape. I spent roughly 20yrs trying to get the ideal bodybuilder look but found that I did not have all the right genetic cards in my favor. I had/have very large upper/lower legs, fairly wide lats, and decent pec/shoulders. The main thing I felt I was missing was overall thickness in the back, very little trap and forearm development, and a frustrating lack of bicep peak. I'd train my traps with shrugs (750lbs for reps at my peak) and could get my upper arms to almost 19", but never had the sizable traps I wanted or the bicep peak. This was good enough for many 2nd place trophies, but I'd always get beat in competitions by the person who had more of the "right genes." The thing about elite swimmers is that most of these people started out with the right genetics, and though years of focused training their bodies have responded to adapt in a particular way. I'm pretty sure that even if I could follow the same swimming/weight/diet routine that these elite swimmers follow, I would still not wind up looking like them because my genetics are not the same (not tall enough, slender enough, proportions are different, etc…) You will probably find that you can achieve part of the look you're going for, but maybe not all of it. Regardless, good luck in your quest. :banana:

RE: Does swimming "inform" muscle growth? A dryland/weights q.

Former Member — Sun, 12 Jun 2011 07:18:24 GMT

Jazz Hands, do you happen to have any shots of this guy? Maybe before/after? I'm willing to listen, but I'm curious to see the results. Your notion and mine might be a little different. No I don't. And you're so missing the point it hurts. The guy is not you. It's just an anecdote, which is the only type of evidence you're ever going to get on this subject of bafflingly intense interest to you. To believe that strength training always makes people look ugly and bulky, and that swimming is magic fairy dust that bestows beauty and proportion, you would have to have zero (0) knowledge about how muscle hypertrophy actually works. The way a sensible person would deal with this is to start building muscle with a simple full-body routine. Then, if you can identify some muscles that you think are overdeveloped, figure out where they are being trained in your routine, and dial it back. Unfortunately, you're not a sensible person.

RE: Does swimming "inform" muscle growth? A dryland/weights q.

Former Member — Sun, 12 Jun 2011 07:07:28 GMT

And I'll repeat this: I have given a training program to a non-swimmer, which training program included no swimming, and the guy developed a swimmery V shape from doing dips, chins, and deadlifts. And no swimming. I love swimming, and I do think it's great for many aspects of overall physical fitness if you enjoy it, but it's not necessary for your still-somewhat-blurry goals. Jazz Hands, do you happen to have any shots of this guy? Maybe before/after? I'm willing to listen, but I'm curious to see the results. Your notion and mine might be a little different.

RE: Does swimming "inform" muscle growth? A dryland/weights q.

Former Member — Sun, 12 Jun 2011 06:49:39 GMT

For example, say someone like him noticed that, during weights and swimming, one season he swam only for long distance freestyle and saw one result. The next, he focused on short distance sprinting, say mostly in butterfly, and saw a different set of results. Both while also doing weights. Good point. I've noticed a difference between freestyle-only and IM-inclusive training. Breaststroke and butterfly both have a noticeable effect on muscle development. More importantly, by swimming all 4 strokes you become a more complete and accomplished swimmer, and you decrease the likelihood of overuse injuries since you're not spending all of your time on the same repetitive motions. Also, it makes swimming more enjoyable and gives you more options if you ever decide to compete, or if you need to use swimming in a survival situation.

RE: Does swimming "inform" muscle growth? A dryland/weights q.

Former Member — Sun, 12 Jun 2011 06:49:17 GMT

The problem is Jazz Hands is too busy with put downs and **** talking to be a constructive addition to this conversation. That's okay though, I plan to keep posting and dealing with the friendlies on here while he can scream as loud as he wants. That's the beauty of a forum, our access is equal. Actually "Bro" (if that is your real name), I answered your question, and only started making fun of you when you responded with the zombie bodybuilder lat pose nonsense. That particular post was so blindingly stupid that it caused me to experience an episode of stupidity-induced hysteria. I am deeply sorry. If you want to go point by point: 1. I said that swimmers, especially from swim training in childhood (!!!) might tend to have preferential muscle growth in major swimming muscles, the most majorest of which is the lats. 2. I further said that bodybuilders and most gym bros focus on a different set of muscles. There are very few gym bros who aren't focusing on biceps curls and tons of bench press variations. Anterior deltoid and biceps development in abundance. Meanwhile, the prevailing aesthetic of competitive bodybuilding values certain peripheral muscles. A "balanced" physique in bodybuilding required some freaking large upper arms, etc. But what's balanced for bodybuilding is not necessarily the same as what's balanced for swimming. 3. I said that if you focus on the large muscles of the torso, such as the lats, in your weight training, instead of having an "arm day" as most bodybuilders do, you will develop in more swimmerly proportions. 4. You responded by showing a picture of a competitive bodybuilder (!?!?!) to make the point that... lats... are... bad? I don't even know anymore. I think maybe you're freaked out by the sheer size of the bodybuilder? Don't worry: that will not happen to you unless you start using steroids. Also, as Paul pointed out, that pose is a special technique to over-emphasize the lats. A person of fairly normal size with good overall muscle development and strong lats looks like what you seeeeem to want to look like. And I'll repeat this: I have given a training program to a non-swimmer, which training program included no swimming, and the guy developed a swimmery V shape from doing dips, chins, and deadlifts. And no swimming. I love swimming, and I do think it's great for many aspects of overall physical fitness if you enjoy it, but it's not necessary for your still-somewhat-blurry goals.

RE: Does swimming "inform" muscle growth? A dryland/weights q.

Former Member — Sun, 12 Jun 2011 06:37:31 GMT

Putting aside the jokes and ad hominem attacks for a second (and by all means please continue with those because they're @$#%ing hilarious), let me reiterate what I think is the core answer to the OP's question. You're not swimming enough. Try doing a 2:1 ratio of swimming to lifting, and don't just jump in and swim hard until you get tired. Do real Masters-style workouts with intervals and a sense of purpose. Actually try to get faster and build endurance in swimming. Most of us are swimming 2500+ yards, 3-5 times per week, with varying intensities. Elites swim a whole hell of a lot more than that. Do this for 6 months and see what happens. Obviously do it in combination with a good diet, careful attention to technique, rotator cuff exercises, etc. so that you avoid injury. To put it another way, instead of focusing on a superficial byproduct of swim training, e.g. body type, approach swimming as a skill to be mastered. If you chase Mastery instead of aesthetics you will start to see everything else fall into place naturally.

RE: Does swimming "inform" muscle growth? A dryland/weights q.

Former Member — Sun, 12 Jun 2011 06:36:13 GMT

I wish I really understood what you are trying to accomplish rather than just asking hypothetical questions. While you may not like the 'tone' of Jazz Hands' posts, he does know what he is talking about when it comes to weight training, muscle hypertrophy and sprinting. The problem is Jazz Hands is too busy with put downs and s*** talking to be a constructive addition to this conversation. That's okay though, I plan to keep posting and dealing with the friendlies on here while he can scream as loud as he wants. That's the beauty of a forum, our access is equal. Speaking of which, I find it funny looking through his old posts that he seems to get into it with a lot of people. Anatagonism runs deep with this one, I guess. Here's what I was asking, perhaps it should be directed to those like Slug who have seen the differences first hand: If we assume differences are seen (witness, again, his experience), I was looking for even further refinement on what is most efficient. For example, say someone like him noticed that, during weights and swimming, one season he swam only for long distance freestyle and saw one result. The next, he focused on short distance sprinting, say mostly in butterfly, and saw a different set of results. Both while also doing weights. Such a person could tell me "hey, I see your goals, I got closest to that doing the latter (or the former)". This would save me some experimenting on my own. That's it. We've already established that at least some on here have seen a complementary effect of both at once, now I'm just trying to determine if they saw differences within that, based on the type of swimming they did.

RE: Does swimming "inform" muscle growth? A dryland/weights q.

swimshark — Sun, 12 Jun 2011 06:30:59 GMT

Swimshark, thank you, narrowing in on my question. But this is why I should have specified same relative genetics. Put another way- the same person spends a year doing each of the above. Will the swimming affect the muscle mass gained? You'll agree with me that anyone who lifts hard will gain some muscle. I'm just trying to deduce if, regardless of genetics, there will be a "sway" because of sprinting. As a non-sprinter, I'm not sure. And yet we mostly train sprinting. My sister is one of those with great muscle tone and almost not fat. But in swimming she is a distance one (doesn't compete but does train and swim in the Ironnman). I compete in distance and do not have the muscle tone my sister does. I don't bike and run like she does but I do lift weights. In fact for 3 weeks I was out of swimming due to an ankle sprain and all I did was lift weights and "swim" using stretch cords. Does that help at all?

RE: Does swimming "inform" muscle growth? A dryland/weights q.

Former Member — Sun, 12 Jun 2011 06:21:10 GMT

Here's some proof that swimming and lifting together do not necessarily make you look like Michael Phelps. I've been swimming competitively for 18 years, and lifting weights for 5 years. Here's a picture of me: http://i.imgur.com/uITwD.jpg (I'm on the right.) Oh god! What has happened to my body? Do you realize that my head used to be normal-shaped?