No sandbagging: It's the law

RE: No sandbagging: It's the law

Hugh — Sun, 01 Apr 2012 11:55:14 GMT

RE: No sandbagging: It's the law

Former Member — Sun, 01 Apr 2012 08:29:25 GMT

Given Fort's explanation, I think what she did was fine.

RE: No sandbagging: It's the law

Former Member — Sun, 01 Apr 2012 05:10:18 GMT

I see that the Championship Committee is addressing sandbagging. Read their minutes at www.usms.org/.../champ-2012-3-25-1.pdf. It looks like the CC is considering posting 2-year best tiimes next to seed times in the heat sheet. I think people are getting a bit confused between mixed gender local meets at mediocre pools vs championship meets at high caliber aquatic facilities...i dont see the big deal in avoidng being handicapped because of gender or age

RE: No sandbagging: It's the law

Former Member — Sat, 31 Mar 2012 15:15:20 GMT

I am done wasting my time responding to a _____ like you. I am assuming that you were going to fill in the blank with good looking, smart, witty, renown, healthy, moral, disciplined, well read, outgoing, very wealthy, clean, friendly, kind to animals of all types, a Leo who likes long walks on the beach, slender, vaccinated, compassionate, yeomanly, loyal, informatitive, caring, Gahndi-ish, wise, strong, nebulous, speling challenged, humorous, and thoughtful ideologue.

RE: No sandbagging: It's the law

Former Member — Sat, 31 Mar 2012 11:16:48 GMT

I think that question would be better answered by the swimmers in her heat that enter legit seed times. ...but they're not posting hateful, bullying type messages on here...you are... ...again from behind your keyboard and nickname, where it's easy to be brave...

RE: No sandbagging: It's the law

Former Member — Sat, 31 Mar 2012 11:05:53 GMT

RE: No sandbagging: It's the law

jim thornton — Sat, 31 Mar 2012 10:54:32 GMT

Can't we all just get along, libeled sandbaggers and ninny blowhards alike? I was once the victim of a sandbagger, who entered a ludicrously slow (for him) time in the 100 free, then proceeded to swim a 49 or 48. The only thing that bugged me was that I caught and swallowed down my wind pipe a wave of backwash off the second turn. I called him out on it here on these very forums, even going so far as to propose using his last name (which has a comedic Germanic quality) as the new verb for egregious sanbagging. To my knowledge, nobody has EVER complained about Leslie's alleged sandbagging, that is, nobody WHO HAS ACTUALLY SWAM IN HER HEAT. Hell, she swims most of her races under water.you hardly know she's there! No chance of water floooding down your windpipe off the walls. She hardly stirs the surface! I say to Mr ninny: let someone who has been aggrieved make the case she's done him or her wrong, if such a person exists. As for you, unless you've been personally affected, desist your criticisms, which only make you seem mean. Try to be a bit more like Rodney King!

RE: No sandbagging: It's the law

Former Member — Sat, 31 Mar 2012 09:00:12 GMT

usual crapola Would you feel better if Fort just did Time Trials and swam them all on her own? Or would that not count in your cockeyed world view?

RE: No sandbagging: It's the law

Former Member — Sat, 31 Mar 2012 08:45:17 GMT

Top Ten 34 consecutive years 1978 --> 2011 :applaud: YOU ARE THE PARAGON OF MASTERS SWIMMING, HUZZAH!

RE: No sandbagging: It's the law

evmo — Sat, 31 Mar 2012 08:12:24 GMT

Congrats to Fort on her records. Also, brag-signatures are kind of embarrassing.

RE: No sandbagging: It's the law

That Guy — Sat, 31 Mar 2012 08:03:06 GMT

Proactive women who swear are frequently not appreciated on this forum. Fort, there is no smilie that adequately demonstrates my appreciation for your swearing! I'll settle for this: :bow: Now just to make sure I understand the levels of awesomeness (ranked from least to most awesome) 1. Asterisks. This is what the forum system replaces swearing with. "That Guy is a total ****." 2. Underscores. "fill in the blank, ______________." 3. Brackets. "if That Guy weren't such a , he'd still be a ****." 4. Braces. Quantum physicists have predicted the existence of this format but it has never been observed. The Large Hadron Collider may one day shed light upon this mystery.

RE: No sandbagging: It's the law

Former Member — Sat, 31 Mar 2012 07:59:07 GMT

Mr. Guthrie, Of course it's sandbagging. She has a long and sordid history of sandbagging. I have heard the gender discrimination whine before, it didn't work then, it doesn't work now. The idea that just because you are a women you are placed in an outside lane is absurd. However, Mr. Guthrie, be cautious. I once suggested an asterik by her "records" as a remedy for violating the spirit of competition. That didn't go over well. When I tried to explain my distaste for such behavior, I too was called names. Not only by the sandbagger, but by her minions in PMs. My suggestion is to let it go. It is only masters swimming.

RE: No sandbagging: It's the law

The Fortress — Sat, 31 Mar 2012 07:27:18 GMT

Sorry I wasn't clear. Attempting a record through split times is a noble task. Her fly seed time wasn't a sandbag. I'm sure there wasn't a 50 fly at this meet for her to swim. Right? Since she has a history of sandbagging, I question her 100 back time. An almost eight second drop for an elite swimmer is mighty impressive. Almost as impressive as the six second drop in the 50 in a previous meet. I think that question would be better answered by the swimmers in her heat that enter legit seed times. You were very clear, ___. And not that it's any of your business, but the 50 fly was at the end of the meet next to the 50 free in which I was also entered. I wanted to swim it fresh in event #1 since I had not done so my last two attempts. This is not illegal, cheating, sinful or immoral. It is a smart strategy, one followed by many. (I think Ande has a tip on event management.) Just because you may frown on that strategy in now way invalidates it. Because I swim all 4 strokes, I often have event conflicts and thus occasionally use split requests to have some rest. If I have made the effort to train for, rest for and attend (maybe travel to) a meet, I see no issue with it. If split requests were immoral, we'd have to invalidate many top ten times and records. Hell, USMS would be immoral. I have no idea why my seed times are your business. I have no idea why you only write derogatory and sarcastic posts. Perhaps you could pause for just a moment and offer some advice and encouragement to fellow masters swimmers instead of repeatedly castigating me. I know I do that on a daily basis. I am done wasting my time responding to a _____ like you. Your comments seem driven by jealousy or bitterness or something.

RE: No sandbagging: It's the law

Chris Stevenson — Sat, 31 Mar 2012 05:07:56 GMT

Women 50-54 50 SC Meter Butterfly =============================================================================== WORLD: W 30.35 12/11/2011 LESLIE LIVINGSTON, USA USMS: N 30.35 12/11/2011 LESLIE LIVINGSTON MEET: M 30.50 3/19/2011 Leslie Livingston Name Age Team Seed Finals =============================================================================== 1 Livingston, Leslie 51 Patriot Masters NT 29.54W This was not a sandbag. As Fortress said, it was the initial split of the following swim: Women 50-54 100 SC Meter Butterfly =============================================================================== WORLD: W 1:08.50 7/3/2010 JUDITH HATTLE, GBR USMS: N 1:08.62 12/4/2011 ANDREA BLOCK MEET: M 1:17.03 3/15/2008 Jeanne Lappin Name Age Team Seed Finals Points =============================================================================== 1 de Boer, Claire 52 UNAT 1:25.00 1:21.04 6 38.01 1:21.04 (43.03) 2 Livingston, Leslie 51 Patriot Masters 2:00.00 1:51.76 4 29.54 1:51.76 (1:22.22) In compiling results, for split requests what is frequently done in Meet Manager is that a separate "fake" event is created and the split is put there. This is done to ensure the time gets submitted for Top Ten consideration and appears in event rankings, and so that Meet Manager can catch any records set (it doesn't check splits for records).

RE: No sandbagging: It's the law

jbs — Sat, 31 Mar 2012 05:01:13 GMT

Proactive women who swear are frequently not appreciated by some on this forum. You seemed to have a typo in your post. Fixed it for you. (Because not all of us share that lack of appreciation.)

RE: No sandbagging: It's the law

The Fortress — Sat, 31 Mar 2012 04:55:07 GMT

There was another thread just started that asks if anyone had noticed it is harder to swim in the outside lanes.In all but the best pools the outside lane is slower,in some pools much slower.Fort is not the only one to complain about it being the fastest in ones age group/gender and being given a less than desirable lane.Meet guidelines suggest that the fastest person of an age group/gender not be given an outside lane,but you can't count on that.Fort's proactive questioning kept her from going to a meet where her times wouldn't have counted for TT and NRs and in this case her proactive planning helped her set a WR(congrats:cheerleader::cheerleader:) while slowing down the meet by 7.15 sec.I'd gladly let a meet run 8 sec long to give someone a better chance at a WR. Proactive women who swear are frequently not appreciated on this forum. Thank you, Allen. It is Karlyn's 100 back SCM WR record now though. She swam a 1:08.1 competing for her French team at French Nationals.

RE: No sandbagging: It's the law

Allen Stark — Sat, 31 Mar 2012 04:15:17 GMT

I have heard the gender discrimination whine before, it didn't work then, it doesn't work now. The idea that just because you are a women you are placed in an outside lane is absurd. There was another thread just started that asks if anyone had noticed it is harder to swim in the outside lanes.In all but the best pools the outside lane is slower,in some pools much slower.Fort is not the only one to complain about it being the fastest in ones age group/gender and being given a less than desirable lane.Meet guidelines suggest that the fastest person of an age group/gender not be given an outside lane,but you can't count on that.Fort's proactive questioning kept her from going to a meet where her times wouldn't have counted for TT and NRs and in this case her proactive planning helped her set a WR(congrats:cheerleader::cheerleader:) while slowing down the meet by 7.15 sec.I'd gladly let a meet run 8 sec long to give someone a better chance at a WR.

RE: No sandbagging: It's the law

The Fortress — Sat, 31 Mar 2012 04:08:29 GMT

She has a long and sordid history of sandbagging. I have heard the gender discrimination whine before, it didn't work then, it doesn't work now. The idea that just because you are a women you are placed in an outside lane is absurd. I once suggested an asterik by her "records" as a remedy for violating the spirit of competition. These comments are preposterous. But they are consistent with your long and sordid history of posting on this forum. Why is it you only post once in a blue moon and usually viciously? Please explain how a split request is sandbagging. This is a standard practice in masters swimming, and records have been set (or attempted to be set) in split requests. I don't give a toss about anyone's seed times, and find it peculiar that you are both so fascinated with mine. Don't you have anything better to do with your life and time? Or do you just both enjoy being ?

RE: No sandbagging: It's the law

Elaine Krugman — Sat, 31 Mar 2012 03:46:48 GMT

! The moderators must be off today (or at Georgia Tech)... :bolt: You go, Girl! :cheerleader: Edit: Hmmm, somebody must be filling in for Rob while he's at the meet... :agree:

RE: No sandbagging: It's the law

The Fortress — Sat, 31 Mar 2012 03:32:15 GMT

Is this sandbagging ? Did it violate "the rule ?" Women 50-54 100 SC Meter Backstroke =============================================================================== WORLD: W 1:09.25 3/19/2011 LESLIE LIVINGSTON, USA USMS: N 1:09.25 3/19/2011 LESLIE LIVINGSTON MEET: M 1:09.25 3/19/2011 Leslie Livingston Name Age Team Seed Finals Points =============================================================================== 1 Livingston, Leslie 51 Patriot Masters 1:16.00 1:08.85W 6 or this ? Women 50-54 50 SC Meter Butterfly =============================================================================== WORLD: W 30.35 12/11/2011 LESLIE LIVINGSTON, USA USMS: N 30.35 12/11/2011 LESLIE LIVINGSTON MEET: M 30.50 3/19/2011 Leslie Livingston Name Age Team Seed Finals =============================================================================== 1 Livingston, Leslie 51 Patriot Masters NT 29.54W I find your post to be incredibly petty and mean spirited. I suspect it's payback for me suggesting long ago that you were elitist on your "most consecutive years top ten" thread. I seeded myself at that time in 100 back because I did not want to be in the all male final heat in an outside lane. We women get sick of that happening in mixed gender meets, as I've said before. It's an effective penalty for fast women. And men like Clay Britt are, what, a foot taller than me and 80 pounds heavier? Enough women have complained to the meet director in the past that this year he did separate gender in the 50s. How fortunate for you that you never have these concerns! I stand by my seeding, and I cannot see why it is of any interest whatsoever to you. I will continue to seed myself at what I deem appropriate or to use strategies to overcome discriminatory situations like fly and back events being back-to-back or the 50 back typically being the dead last event at a meet. My 50 fly time was a split request in the 100 fly. When doing this, you are SUPPOSED to seed yourself at your finishing time, which I did. I seeded myself at 2:00 and went 1:50+. I did not enter with a NT as you falsely indicate above. I always let adjacent lanes know if I am swimming for a split -- an absolutely routine commonplace occurrence. It is truly your loss that you don't think and execute as I do. If more people did, they might swim faster faster. Feel free to check the seed times for my nationals entries, you snobby elitist ____. Name: Livingston, Leslie C Sex/Age: W50 Club: Patriot Masters Swim Team (GMUP) Events: Event Seed Time Event Check-in #7 - 100 Butterfly 1:02.50 #13 - 100 Backstroke 1:01.99 #19 - 100 Individual Medley 1:03.7 #25 - 50 Freestyle 25.30 #37 - 50 Butterfly 26.79 #41 - 50 Backstroke 27.46

RE: No sandbagging: It's the law

Celestial — Sat, 31 Mar 2012 02:03:12 GMT

Don't suppose, Mr.Guthrie that you have ever perhaps, been recently ill, or recovering when entering a meet, and then surprised yourself with a good swim? You are such an elitist! Do you have anything positive to say?

RE: No sandbagging: It's the law

Former Member — Tue, 28 Jun 2011 15:09:10 GMT

Meet participation statistics are always available on the USMS web site. To find them: 1) Go to www.usms.org 2) Mouse over the blue "Competition" tab across the top 3) Select "Meet Results Database" (it's at the very top of the list) The direct link is: www.usms.org/.../ The first thing you'll see is a table of statistics. Currently, for all 2011 meets entered into our database, there have been 12,294 unique USMS member participants. Our membership right now is 50,295. So, about 24% of our membership has participated in a swim meet this year. Scroll down further and you'll see two lists. The first list displays the meets that have most recently been added to the database. The second list displays the meets that we know took place, but have NOT been submitted to the database. If you were a participant in any of those meets, please ask the meet director to submit the results! They can be emailed to: MeetResults (at) usms (dot) org

RE: No sandbagging: It's the law

Former Member — Tue, 28 Jun 2011 14:25:15 GMT

Lap swimming for middle-aged heart patients? Outstanding suggestion. I like it.

RE: No sandbagging: It's the law

Former Member — Tue, 28 Jun 2011 14:19:48 GMT

Are there more of us now than there were 20 years ago ? You can view our membership statistics here: www.usms.org/.../gto_num_of_members.pdf

RE: No sandbagging: It's the law

Former Member — Tue, 28 Jun 2011 13:33:42 GMT

Would it be proper in a mixed gender meet to provide a check off box on meet entry forms for female swimmers to get preferential lane assignments? Maybe they could be seeded one heat lower to allow them to get out ahead of us 230 pound plus swimmers and the choas we create with our wake. Personaly, I would love to get bumped up a heat for the competition aspect value in itself.