Swim Faster Stronger

RE: Swim Faster Stronger

Former Member — Thu, 05 Jan 2012 17:20:42 GMT

Last night I tried a few more machines, just for the heck of it. Currently I prefer machines. They are quick & easy to set up & I do not want to drop a barbell. Did 3 x 15 lat pulldowns (3 sets of 15 reps); 2 x 10 bench press; 2 x 10 "fly" (this isolates pectoralis; I am not sure what to call this machine); 2 x 10 dip; 1 x 10 quad extension; 1 x 15 squat; a few crunches. To avoid injury, I am not trying to lift too much weight at the outset ... How much lifting is it reasonable to do in an hour? An hour is more than plenty of lift time for a swimmer imo. Don't neglect the small stabilizer muscles like those worked on external rotations. I do 4x20 each side with 5lbs on the adjustable cable machine for the rotations. I've even done them 4x35-50 with 2.5lbs resistance. I never lift to supplement swimming, only to compliment it. Typical 25-30 minute lift session for me will always include: close grip pulldowns 3-4x10 close grip seated rows 3-4x10 leg press/hip sled 3x12 (working explosiveness rather than heavy load) rotated in once every 3-4 sessions: external rotations tricep pushdowns/pullovers incline dumbell press deltoid raises, front, sides, middle. calf raises For abs, the only excercise you need is hanging leg raises, and maybe something for obliques. I don't do a ton of lifting but these all seem to be at the core of what I'm trying to improve strength on. The rest is done in the pool.

RE: Swim Faster Stronger

__steve__ — Thu, 05 Jan 2012 11:54:51 GMT

I know how much swimming I can do in an hour. How much lifting is it reasonable to do in an hour? For me lifting is different. 15 minutes (excluding warmup) 3 - 4 times a week is better than hour a day. This is how I do it: - Warm up entire body - then do 12 - 30 rep (legs more reps) per exercise until complete failure - do just one set per exercise, that's all that is really needed if you do it hard enough - Go directly into the next exercise without any rest (5 - 15 seconds to vomit or shake off are permitted) Typical workout: stationary barbell snatches, leg press, iso-lateral chest, iso-lateral back, seated shoulder press, leg curls, extensions, dips, pull downs, then I alternate between leg raises and plank for 2 sets, rest for 1 minute while loading down the leg press machine to do calf raises (calfs require alot of weight) That's my 15 minute workout. In addition, once a week I do easy specialized lifts such as shoulder targeted stuff.

RE: Swim Faster Stronger

Swimosaur — Thu, 05 Jan 2012 11:12:31 GMT

It's a new year ... :bump: I know this sounds arbitrary, but we have to start somewhere. Here are my can't-fail load and volume parameters for newbies: 1. Do a full body workout two or three days a week, involving one push, one pull, and one squat. 2. Do between 2 and 6 sets per exercise, excluding easy/warm-up sets. 3. Do between 5 and 15 reps per set. 4. Don't take less than a full minute of rest between sets. Within that, knock yourself out. You'll eventually come to some kind of understanding of how you respond to different amounts of volume and load, and how much variety you want. I have to re-engineer my schedule a bit this year, and it looks like I'll have the opportunity to include strength training twice a week. I've been doing lat pulldowns now & then, on a random schedule, for several months & like the effect, but nothing beyond that. Last night I tried a few more machines, just for the heck of it. Currently I prefer machines. They are quick & easy to set up & I do not want to drop a barbell. Did 3 x 15 lat pulldowns (3 sets of 15 reps); 2 x 10 bench press; 2 x 10 "fly" (this isolates pectoralis; I am not sure what to call this machine); 2 x 10 dip; 1 x 10 quad extension; 1 x 15 squat; a few crunches. To avoid injury, I am not trying to lift too much weight at the outset. I'm going to try to come up with a stable program over the next couple of weeks. On lifting nights I will have about an hour to complete whatever routine. I know how much swimming I can do in an hour. How much lifting is it reasonable to do in an hour?

RE: Swim Faster Stronger

Allen Stark — Sat, 03 Sep 2011 11:16:42 GMT

Sorry,this is going to look confusing.This is Allen Stark.I was on my wife's computer and forgot to sign her out before I wrote the response.Since I am too lazy to type it again I am adding this preface. Probably mostly the usual-alternate arm and leg raises,extended arm planks with feet on the ball,supine plank with feet on the ball,but also "supermans" with hips on the ball and feet on a bench(feet together or even one foot on the other) crunches on the ball with feet on a bench.I sometimes attempt an exercise I learned from Rich Abrahams where you get in arms extended plank position with feet on the ball and then try to walk with you hands 360 degrees around the ball.I say try because I don't remember ever making it all the way around. It doesn't prove anything of course, but it does mean something that Rich does a lot of core work and you can't argue with his success.Also Dara Torres is famous for her core work. One of the best core exercises is dolphin kick with fins. I read one coach said that some of the advantages of having swimmers work on SDKs are that it improves streamlining and strengthens the core. YMMV OK,I'm back to being me,this is my response.

RE: Swim Faster Stronger

SealGirl — Sat, 03 Sep 2011 11:09:23 GMT

Anything special or are you just doing ab exercises on the stability ball? Sorry,this is going to look confusing.This is Allen Stark.I was on my wife's computer and forgot to sign her out before I wrote the response.Since I am too lazy to type it again I am adding this preface. Probably mostly the usual-alternate arm and leg raises,extended arm planks with feet on the ball,supine plank with feet on the ball,but also "supermans" with hips on the ball and feet on a bench(feet together or even one foot on the other) crunches on the ball with feet on a bench.I sometimes attempt an exercise I learned from Rich Abrahams where you get in arms extended plank position with feet on the ball and then try to walk with you hands 360 degrees around the ball.I say try because I don't remember ever making it all the way around. It doesn't prove anything of course, but it does mean something that Rich does a lot of core work and you can't argue with his success.Also Dara Torres is famous for her core work. One of the best core exercises is dolphin kick with fins. I read one coach said that some of the advantages of having swimmers work on SDKs are that it improves streamlining and strengthens the core. YMMV

RE: Swim Faster Stronger

That Guy — Sat, 03 Sep 2011 02:58:12 GMT

OK,I'm back to being me,this is my response. This is my question.

RE: Swim Faster Stronger

bcoomes — Fri, 02 Sep 2011 12:29:41 GMT

I almost ALWAYS get out of an 800/1000/1500/1650/event and my lats and triceps are killing me, not my abs. I can barely raise my arms above my head to streamline in the five to ten minutes after the race is over. I almost ALWAYS get out of swimming an 800/1000/1500/1650/OW event, but when I do one in practice my lungs give out long before any muscle group does. One more thing for me to work on.

RE: Swim Faster Stronger

jaadams1 — Fri, 02 Sep 2011 12:02:31 GMT

I almost ALWAYS get out of an 800/1000/1500/1650/OW events and absolutely think, "Damn! My core is killing me / gave out on me / I gotta get back to doing more core work." I almost ALWAYS get out of an 800/1000/1500/1650/event and my lats and triceps are killing me, not my abs. I can barely raise my arms above my head to streamline in the five to ten minutes after the race is over. But this tells me I busted my butt hardcore as well!

RE: Swim Faster Stronger

jaadams1 — Fri, 02 Sep 2011 10:56:38 GMT

... or that you raced way harder than you prepared for! OK...that too! :D I remember feeling like that in college after my 1650 at Nats, going 15:53. I was training 8-9000+ twice a day and Saturdays back then, so I should have been plenty prepared.

RE: Swim Faster Stronger

Patrick W. Brundage — Fri, 02 Sep 2011 08:39:18 GMT

But this tells me I busted my butt hardcore as well!... or that you raced way harder than you prepared for!

RE: Swim Faster Stronger

Patrick W. Brundage — Thu, 01 Sep 2011 11:36:46 GMT

As an aside: I never, ever finish a race and immediately think that I was limited by inadequate core strength. ("My abs just gave out on that last stretch!" or "I couldn't get my legs over on the last turn!") Others may be different, of course.I almost ALWAYS get out of an 800/1000/1500/1650/OW events and absolutely think, "Damn! My core is killing me / gave out on me / I gotta get back to doing more core work." True story. Of course, maybe if I did repeats longer than a 300 or 400 more consistently before racing distance events, maybe that would help. But, the bottom-line is that the kind of swim training I'm doing doesn't seem to fully prepare my core for the kind of swim-racing I do.

RE: Swim Faster Stronger

Former Member — Thu, 01 Sep 2011 11:09:42 GMT

I have found stability ball type exercises quite helpful both for strength but also for body awareness. Anything special or are you just doing ab exercises on the stability ball?

RE: Swim Faster Stronger

Former Member — Thu, 01 Sep 2011 10:56:58 GMT

Oh my gosh is this ever a depressing thought. I have no idea why it is a depressing thought? USMS is an organization of swimmers and there is a broad spectrum of skill levels. It depresses you that there are people interested enough in swimming to get up at 4:30am to swim sans flip turns? They cheer me up. Maybe the average USMS member does flip turns, I have no idea. I was making fun of Chris pure and simple. But maybe the average USMS member is an Olympian still training and competing at the top of his age group and I owe Chris an apology.

RE: Swim Faster Stronger

Chris Stevenson — Thu, 01 Sep 2011 09:09:05 GMT

It is probably pointless to represent "a typical masters swimmers" by any one type. I suspect the type Qbrain describes -- open turns, legs dangling, never competes, never generates lactic acid in practice (he could have just said "triathlete") -- is perhaps just as much an outlier as ex-collegiate swimmers. (The triathlete thing was a joke, please don't beat up on me.) A sizeable minority of USMS members compete; I think the number is routinely underestimated. (For example, one of the candidates for the office of USMS President stated the number is 20%.) If you go here: www.usms.org/.../ you'll see an informative table (kudos to Jim M). In 2010 there were about 16,000 unique members who competed in a meet that appears in our national results database; there were about 55,000 members of USMS in that year, so we KNOW at least 29% of members competed in one or more meets. But this is a minimum because that 16,000 figure omits (a) meets not included in the results database and (b) open water competitions. IMO the latter, especially, would add quite a few "unique" swimmers to the pool. Registration in Virginia jumps significantly once OW season starts, for example. I wouldn't be surprised if 35-40% of our membership competes in at least one meet or OW race per year. That squares with my estimates of participation rates in our LMSC and it's a pretty sizeable fraction of membership. So does the "average" masters swimmer -- whatever that means -- engage the core enough while swimming to be "fit" (whatever that means)? I have no clue or strong opinion. I think that swimming is a good choice for a healthy lifestyle, but if fitness is your only goal I would certainly recommend at least one alternative form of dryland activity a couple times a week. My father has back problems. I did once ask my physician (USMS past-president Jim Miller) what I should be doing to avoid those problems, and he said I'm already doing it by swimming.

RE: Swim Faster Stronger

funkyfish — Thu, 01 Sep 2011 07:44:02 GMT

I will say ,unequivocally ,that cadaver pigs should avoid crunches.:bolt: I feel inclined to agree with you on this one. Besides, it's probably an issue of too little too late.

RE: Swim Faster Stronger

Allen Stark — Thu, 01 Sep 2011 07:00:41 GMT

Re: core exercises,I agree regular crunches probably don't contribute much,but I have found stability ball type exercises quite helpful both for strength but also for body awareness.I had had a problems on push offs with being a little sway backed which I have been better able to avoid since the stability ball work. Also the quoted experiment with the cadaver pigs to show crunches were bad for your back seems to me to have limited or no predictive value for humans since we would be actively bending instead of passively bending which would totally alter the effects since the muscles around the back(core muscles) would be involved.I will say ,unequivocally ,that cadaver pigs should avoid crunches.:bolt:

RE: Swim Faster Stronger

aquageek — Thu, 01 Sep 2011 05:35:54 GMT

Oh my gosh is this ever a depressing thought. When I was at Nationals 3 weeks ago, that is not what I associated with masters swimmers! Although I have to admit that perhaps that is what the majority of "masters swimmers" are & why they are there, but I would bet that at least those of us on the Forum do complete, do flip turns & at least feel guilty if we don't do dry lands. I have to agree with those who say the core is important in the other areas of our lives though. And doesn't the core help with your fly & flip turns, if nothing else? Also, I noticed that my abs were extremely sore after my first meet - so we must use them on our dives, as well! :) Truly agree. Q needs to visit a few other teams to change his views.

RE: Swim Faster Stronger

Celestial — Thu, 01 Sep 2011 05:25:42 GMT

As an aside: I never, ever think of an Olympian when I think of masters swimmers as a whole, but think of someone who doesn't compete, doesn't do drylands, probably does open turns and swims with a team for the combination of organized cardio and friendship. Oh my gosh is this ever a depressing thought. When I was at Nationals 3 weeks ago, that is not what I associated with masters swimmers! Although I have to admit that perhaps that is what the majority of "masters swimmers" are & why they are there, but I would bet that at least those of us on the Forum do compete, do flip turns & at least feel guilty if we don't do dry lands. I have to agree with those who say the core is important in the other areas of our lives though. And doesn't the core help with your fly & flip turns, if nothing else? Also, I noticed that my abs were extremely sore after my first meet - so we must use them on our dives, as well! :)

RE: Swim Faster Stronger

Former Member — Wed, 31 Aug 2011 16:08:54 GMT

Strength training improves "just about everything" related to muscles in all athletes. This is pretty well established common knowledge and supported by numerous research not that anyone who has ever gone to the gym needs research to know that this is true. The real question as it relates to swimming is at what point are the benefits asymptotic (i.e. diminishing returns) and for distance swimmers at what point is the oxygen requirements of extra muscle mass detrimental.

RE: Swim Faster Stronger

Former Member — Wed, 31 Aug 2011 14:56:35 GMT

A recent study showed that strength training can significantly improve muscle efficiency for older athletes: www.theglobeandmail.com/.../

RE: Swim Faster Stronger

Former Member — Wed, 31 Aug 2011 14:16:56 GMT

From the NYT article: But in another study, this time of novice adult runners who displayed weak core strength in preliminary testing, those who completed six weeks of core training drills lowered their five-kilometer run times significantly more than a control group of beginning runners who did not focus on their midsections. The previous paragraphs (in the article) explain how collegiate rowers, when they added core work to their training, did not show any improvement in rowing tests. Go poke a collegiate rower in the stomach, then go poke your average masters swimmer. Most masters swimmers are going to be closer to the novice runners group and will benefit from core work. My opinion is that swimming does not provide enough "core work" and more needs to be done out of the pool. Outside of the pool there are lots of activities that would develop the core: crunches, hanging knee raises, rowing, squats, medicine ball exercises, planks, lower body plyometics. These (and many other) activities force core engagement, that swimming doesn't seem to require.

RE: Swim Faster Stronger

__steve__ — Wed, 31 Aug 2011 12:13:27 GMT

From the NYT article: The previous paragraphs (in the article) explain how collegiate rowers, when they added core work to their training, did not show any improvement in rowing tests. Go poke a collegiate rower in the stomach, then go poke your average masters swimmer. Most masters swimmers are going to be closer to the novice runners group and will benefit from core work. My opinion is that swimming does not provide enough "core work" and more needs to be done out of the pool. Outside of the pool there are lots of activities that would develop the core: crunches, hanging knee raises, rowing, squats, medicine ball exercises, planks, lower body plyometics. These (and many other) activities force core engagement, that swimming doesn't seem to require. I agree that collegiate rowers are already core powerful, and would not benefit from certain "core" specific extracurricular activities when compared to a runner or masters swimmer. I wonder if certain studies might be reported in a misleading way.

RE: Swim Faster Stronger

pendaluft — Wed, 31 Aug 2011 11:30:53 GMT

I look at these various articles, though, and wonder why these scientists are choosing such short periods (e.g., a few weeks to maybe a few months) to test these effects? Why aren't they following athletes for at least a year or, at a minimum, over some 'season' of training? Frankly, because its much easier to finish and publish something even if it's not that useful or definitive -- you get to add it to your list on your CV faster. That's also a big reason why the sample sizes are so small (that and funding issues, of course).

RE: Swim Faster Stronger

Chris Stevenson — Wed, 31 Aug 2011 11:08:15 GMT

The previous paragraphs (in the article) explain how collegiate rowers, when they added core work to their training, did not show any improvement in rowing tests. Go poke a collegiate rower in the stomach, then go poke your average masters swimmer. Most masters swimmers are going to be closer to the novice runners group and will benefit from core work. My opinion is that swimming does not provide enough "core work" and more needs to be done out of the pool. Outside of the pool there are lots of activities that would develop the core: crunches, hanging knee raises, rowing, squats, medicine ball exercises, planks, lower body plyometics. These (and many other) activities force core engagement, that swimming doesn't seem to require. I disagree that masters swimmers are closer to novice runners than collegiate rowers. But if you are saying that swimming doesn't require the core much (another statement with which I disagree), then how would doing core work benefit swimming? One can argue that the principle of specificity is relevant here. Swimmers who train hard, with plenty of race-pace training, train their core as much as they need to do well in races. The question of how much swimming engages the core is irrelevant, in that case. Would "over" training the core help? Advocates of weight lifting would say that additional stress on the muscles beyond normal swimming produces additional power that can be used in a swimming race, especially sprints. I am not at all sure that additional core training would do the same. As an aside: I never, ever finish a race and immediately think that I was limited by inadequate core strength. ("My abs just gave out on that last stretch!" or "I couldn't get my legs over on the last turn!") Others may be different, of course. But maybe additional core training leads to overall better fitness and health, in which case the question of whether or not swimming provides adequate core engagement is quite important.

RE: Swim Faster Stronger

Patrick W. Brundage — Wed, 31 Aug 2011 11:02:37 GMT

A recent study showed that strength training can significantly improve muscle efficiency for older athletes: www.theglobeandmail.com/.../Nice article and good support. I look at these various articles, though, and wonder why these scientists are choosing such short periods (e.g., a few weeks to maybe a few months) to test these effects? Why aren't they following athletes for at least a year or, at a minimum, over some 'season' of training?