Rules on Pacing

RE: Rules on Pacing

Three Rivers — Fri, 11 Feb 2011 12:31:30 GMT

Big deal. I bet 90% of seed times in masters meets are made up. Not trying to be argumentative but it is a big deal to us slow pokes who get drowned in the wake of someone who really shouldn't be in our heat.

RE: Rules on Pacing

Former Member — Fri, 11 Feb 2011 08:17:07 GMT

I have absolutely zero patience for that behavior. -Rick Not saying I do it, I just know it happens ALL the time ;)

RE: Rules on Pacing

Former Member — Fri, 11 Feb 2011 08:02:17 GMT

Roger that. It bugs me to see someone swim, say, 1:03, in the first heat of the 100 free right next to the nice 83-year old lady who seeded herself correctly at 3:03. S Agreed. It's not fun getting lapped on a 100. You start the race with the reasonable expectation that you have a fighting chance competing against the swimmer in the next lane; then you wonder what the heck went wrong with your own swim that you got smoked. It's almost like rubbing the noses of the slower swimmers who already know they're slow.

RE: Rules on Pacing

Former Member — Fri, 11 Feb 2011 07:24:41 GMT

RE: Rules on Pacing

Chris Stevenson — Fri, 11 Feb 2011 03:55:32 GMT

I don't think theres a problem with NT seeds unless it becomes obnoxious (i.e. an entire team swimming NT seeds). Some people swim better when they're well ahead in a race with clean water on the sides. NT seeding would be a way to ensure that. There are probably some legit cases for NTs: with beginner/novice swimmers, for example. But by and large, no. And entering NT just to get clean water is fairly reprehensible, IMO. Pool time is a precious commodity, and costs money. Plus I don't like to be at a meet any longer than necessary. I am swimming at a meet this weekend where they will probably have to say "no" to most deck entries because we are bumping right up against the allowed timeline for our event. Obvious sandbagging or incorrectly entering NTs lengthen the timeline, and are unsportsmanlike to boot (IMO). But this is a little off the original thread topic so I'll subside for now... :hijack:

RE: Rules on Pacing

osterber — Fri, 11 Feb 2011 03:10:46 GMT

Some people swim better when they're well ahead in a race with clean water on the sides. NT seeding would be a way to ensure that. I have absolutely zero patience for that behavior. -Rick

RE: Rules on Pacing

smontanaro — Fri, 11 Feb 2011 01:38:12 GMT

I also don't think anyone should be able to enter with "NT" (no time). Everyone should have some idea of how fast they'll swim a race, so just enter that guess. Roger that. It bugs me to see someone swim, say, 1:03, in the first heat of the 100 free right next to the nice 83-year old lady who seeded herself correctly at 3:03. S

RE: Rules on Pacing

knelson — Fri, 11 Feb 2011 01:28:41 GMT

Not trying to be argumentative but it is a big deal to us slow pokes who get drowned in the wake of someone who really shouldn't be in our heat. I agree with you on this. I'm not a fan of entering a slow seed time just to get clear water or to maximize rest time in between events, but I do endorse making up realistic seed times. I always try to enter myself close to the time I think I'll swim, so lots of times this means making up a time. I also don't think anyone should be able to enter with "NT" (no time). Everyone should have some idea of how fast they'll swim a race, so just enter that guess.

RE: Rules on Pacing

Former Member — Thu, 10 Feb 2011 17:18:22 GMT

I always wanted a series of lights on the black line that would show me the target pace, in practice not meets. Or goggles with x-ray vision. Or a ray gun paralyzer. But I never got any of them.

RE: Rules on Pacing

Former Member — Thu, 10 Feb 2011 16:54:58 GMT

Our club had a pacing machine on the side of our swimmin gpool deck, It was set at 5 minutes pace for a 450 yd swims. We used it when were doing 450s on 5 minutes. It was on two pulleys and a rope with a flag on it that went up and down the pool. Two swimmers per lane.

RE: Rules on Pacing

Former Member — Thu, 10 Feb 2011 12:17:47 GMT

Why would you want goggles with x-ray vision? I would only use them to fight evil.

RE: Rules on Pacing

aquageek — Thu, 10 Feb 2011 11:52:37 GMT

At a recent meet I attended the scoreboard had both the times and laps completed of the 1650. The bonus was that it was super easy to see as you were swimming.

RE: Rules on Pacing

Chris Stevenson — Thu, 10 Feb 2011 11:44:13 GMT

here is a rule according to FINA SW 10.16 No pace-making shall be permitted, nor may any device be used or plan adopted which has that effect So if an official thinks you looked at the scoreboard and saw your split during a race, you can be DQ'd. Right? I don't see any other way to read this (rather silly) rule.

RE: Rules on Pacing

Former Member — Thu, 10 Feb 2011 07:16:59 GMT

So if an official thinks you looked at the scoreboard and saw your split during a race, you can be DQ'd. Right? I don't see any other way to read this (rather silly) rule. must have done by the “suits” (sport politicians) quoting this article www.swimnews.com/.../8427 An Open Letter from the Executive Director of the American Swimming Coaches Association Comment: A review by ACES (Association of Chief Executives for Sport) supplied to USA-Swimming reports that exactly ZERO are the number of people serving on the governing boards of directors for their international Federation, who are ATHLETES or COACHES. At the end of this short article, I’ll list all the federations who responded. No athletes. No coaches. What conclusions can we draw from this? 1. International Federations operate as paternalistic organizations where anyone except the “suits” (sport politicians) are not welcome. 2. Professional athletes in all sports, are “done to, and for” by amateurs who reside in the old thinking of the 19th century that only “gentlemen” run sport. 3. Professional coaches are not considered worthy to help govern the sports in which they spend their entire lives. Someone told me recently that clearly it was a “bad idea” to have athletes and coaches on governing bodies. This same person is a ranking sport politician not only in their own federation, but in the international federation. What flawed logic. ("it’s never been so, so clearly it should never be so.”) In reality, this is the strongest possible indictment of the CREDIBILITY of International Sports Federations to govern their sport. Making them, quite literally, IN-Credible. As proof of the absurdity of this conclusion, I point to USA Swimming and to Australian Swimming….the two most successful sports teams in the history of Olympic Sport, in terms of medals won, records set, etc. (we’ll dismiss the old drug cheating East German regime from consideration, shall we? ) Both organizations have both athletes and coaches imbedded permanently in the highest levels of decision making in their organization….quite successfully it would appear. While I cannot speak authoritatively on the history of Australian Swimming, it is correct that USA Swimming has had athletes and coaches on it’s Board of Directors since it’s inception in 1979. It works for the two most successful Olympic organizations on the planet, but wouldn’t work for International Federations? Please. And please, remember that we’re talking “Serving on the governing boards…” not the eyewash of “athletes commissions” that the IOC and some others that they put in place to blunt valid criticism, and then roundly ignore. Time for a Change. InCredible. The sports represented in the survey: Badminton, Biathlon, Bowling, Equestrian, Fencing, Field Hockey, Hockey, Lacrosse, Luge, Masters Swimming, Rugby, Sailing, Shooting, Soccer, Softball, Swimming, Synchro Swimming, Table Tennis, Volleyball, Water Polo, Water Ski, Wrestling

RE: Rules on Pacing

That Guy — Thu, 10 Feb 2011 06:03:40 GMT

I always wanted a series of lights on the black line that would show me the target pace, in practice not meets. Or goggles with x-ray vision. Or a ray gun paralyzer. But I never got any of them. Why would you want goggles with x-ray vision? "There's a skeleton. Hey, there's another skeleton." "OK, apparently that was the wall."

RE: Rules on Pacing

Rykno — Thu, 10 Feb 2011 04:35:56 GMT

here is a rule according to FINA SW 10.16 No pace-making shall be permitted, nor may any device be used or plan adopted which has that effect I have even been told that a coach, parent or swimmer using various hand motions to signal on pace or speed up is against this rule. and that is why in sweden only offiicials can hold the lap counter to prevent pace giving information. there is no specific rule in the fina masters rules, but I assume that most of the standard rules apply if there is no expection or specific change to the rule for masters like with suits between nov and jan 2009-2010

RE: Rules on Pacing

Former Member — Wed, 09 Feb 2011 14:54:44 GMT

Don't coaches signal swimmers when pace is to fast or slow? Is that legal? Can't be. If that was, then they'd have to turn off the clocks during the swim too. I paced my 200 free the other day by looking at my splits while swimming the race :) It was certainly a device used to enhance pace in that instance. Does that make looking at it illegal?

RE: Rules on Pacing

Former Member — Wed, 09 Feb 2011 13:22:42 GMT

I. Third, if she did do it to get a top 10 time or something like that, do you really think that is fair? Also, let it be known that the pacer never finished his laps. He quit when she was done. Yes, it is fair. The she still had to do the swimming and get a time that is good enough for top ten. Why does it matter if he didn't finish? He wasn't going for a place, time, etc. Pacing happens all the time in track, so what makes swimming anything special compared to track?

RE: Rules on Pacing

Former Member — Wed, 09 Feb 2011 10:01:51 GMT

Not near sighted swimmers. Nor people in a lane on the same wall as the time board :) There's some places in a pool that you just can't see it.

RE: Rules on Pacing

aquageek — Wed, 09 Feb 2011 08:54:28 GMT

Also, let it be known that the pacer never finished his laps. He quit when she was done. Did you want the officials to DQ the person in the warm-up/warm-down lanes for not finishing the event that was going on in the competition lanes? Seems like a lot of whining over a non-issue.

RE: Rules on Pacing

swimmerb212 — Wed, 09 Feb 2011 08:20:25 GMT

The rules on seeding races are very specific: http://www.usms.org/rules/ Even if you put in the exact same seed time as someone else, you may not end up anywhere near each other or even in the same heat. There's usually no way to predict what lane you're going to be in unless you know everyone else's seed times. To depend on a pacer would just be silly unless you made the decision to do so right before the race when you noticed that a pace swimmer, who is also a friend, is in an adjacent lane. In that case, it would probably be no different than any other race, because everyone has already submitted legit-enough times. I suppose you could plan to pace in a postal meet or something, but that's not really messing with a lot of other swimmers in a meet situation, and the stakes are really low.

RE: Rules on Pacing

jaadams1 — Wed, 09 Feb 2011 08:02:30 GMT

Can't be. If that was, then they'd have to turn off the clocks during the swim too. I paced my 200 free the other day by looking at my splits while swimming the race :) It was certainly a device used to enhance pace in that instance. Does that make looking at it illegal? I did the same thing during my 1650 last weekend...I didn't look at the clock all the time, but at certain points in the race I would glance at the clock, do a little math in my head, and pick up the pace (why would I choose to slow down the pace??) :)

RE: Rules on Pacing

Former Member — Wed, 09 Feb 2011 07:24:49 GMT

Personally, totally in favor of pace help (even the pulse watch which is illegal while competing):applaud: About any rule against it ever heard . Though a judge might consider inappropriate conduct if is it “obvious the intention”. Have been DQ once for doing legs really slow at a competition (400 freestyle), was a protest:D

RE: Rules on Pacing

pendaluft — Wed, 09 Feb 2011 04:24:49 GMT

The clock is available to all competitors in the given race so you did not gain an unfair advantage. Not near sighted swimmers.

RE: Rules on Pacing

fatboy — Wed, 09 Feb 2011 03:30:42 GMT

Can't be. If that was, then they'd have to turn off the clocks during the swim too. I paced my 200 free the other day by looking at my splits while swimming the race :) It was certainly a device used to enhance pace in that instance. Does that make looking at it illegal? The clock is available to all competitors in the given race so you did not gain an unfair advantage.