Flip or open turns in distance races?

RE: Flip or open turns in distance races?

That Guy — Mon, 24 Jan 2011 12:36:12 GMT

Well...after my fly day, the 500 being the last event, I'm definitely exhausted, but did very well, and had fun! 't do it, or don't know the satisfaction you get from accomplishing a hard task, etc. One of them is the 50-some year old hot shot breaskstroker in our LMSC that I'm going to beat in his events at the LMSC Champs...just to rub it in a little more... :banana: Great job on your 500 fly, definitely not cool that people said it was stupid. 500 reverse IM, ok that would be stupid. (making a mental note to do one someday) After you beat that breaststroker, I recommend having a nice ham sandwich. :cheerleader:

RE: Flip or open turns in distance races?

Former Member — Sun, 23 Jan 2011 16:09:24 GMT

Thanks wookie. Yeah, my dolphin kicks are lame so it was easy to chuck them, and I'm not sure why I didn't think of it sooner for the 200. Yes, since I didn't have to worry about when to start dolphin kicking it allowed me to concentrate on the pushoff a bit more I think. Comparing the two races, it's tough to glean any info because I paced them very differently. Last year I took it out too slow and had a bunch of energy at the end, while this year I went out fast and tried to survive: 2009 (w/2 poor dolphin kicks off of walls): 34.40; 36.82 (1:11.22); 37.11 (1:48.33); 34.29 (2:22.62) 2010 (w/no dolphin kicks, streamline): 32.27; 34.27 (1:06.54); 35.44 (1:41.98); 35.69 (2:17.67) Had I tried to stay under and kick the same way this year, I wouldn't have been able to hold the pace on the last 50- I was dying something fierce. jaadams brings up a good point and made me think about something. If I were doing a 500 fly, I would HATE to have to do flip turns- I think this would make it infinitely harder than doing open turns. So referring back to the OP, I still think open turns are the way to go at this point. In a 500 fly that is done during a "freestyle" event, I am not sure I would worry about flipturns or a lot of dolphin kicks off the walls. That would really make the last 400 hurt

RE: Flip or open turns in distance races?

Former Member — Sun, 23 Jan 2011 15:43:25 GMT

Thanks. The OP hit on a topic that I feel like I've had a breakthrough on, so I thought it was a good example of doing something that's eschewed at the elite level, but may help us down here at the mere mortal level. Congrats on the swim!! That is an impressive time. I am going to experiment with that for a bit in my 200 back. The last 3 turns are always my worst. I have worked very hard on improving my underwater dolphin kick but it still falls apart in the 200. Do you feel that you were able to push off the all with more "umph" on each turn since you weren't staying underwater to kick? How were your splits in this previous race compared to the one before? I would guess they were close together on each 50. I will keep on improving the underwater kick for the 50 and 100 but may start learning toward this for the 200.

RE: Flip or open turns in distance races?

Speedo — Sun, 23 Jan 2011 11:03:21 GMT

Congrats on the swim!! That is an impressive time. I am going to experiment with that for a bit in my 200 back. The last 3 turns are always my worst. I have worked very hard on improving my underwater dolphin kick but it still falls apart in the 200. Do you feel that you were able to push off the all with more "umph" on each turn since you weren't staying underwater to kick? How were your splits in this previous race compared to the one before? I would guess they were close together on each 50. I will keep on improving the underwater kick for the 50 and 100 but may start learning toward this for the 200.Thanks wookie. Yeah, my dolphin kicks are lame so it was easy to chuck them, and I'm not sure why I didn't think of it sooner for the 200. Yes, since I didn't have to worry about when to start dolphin kicking it allowed me to concentrate on the pushoff a bit more I think. Comparing the two races, it's tough to glean any info because I paced them very differently. Last year I took it out too slow and had a bunch of energy at the end, while this year I went out fast and tried to survive: 2009 (w/2 poor dolphin kicks off of walls): 34.40; 36.82 (1:11.22); 37.11 (1:48.33); 34.29 (2:22.62) 2010 (w/no dolphin kicks, streamline): 32.27; 34.27 (1:06.54); 35.44 (1:41.98); 35.69 (2:17.67) Had I tried to stay under and kick the same way this year, I wouldn't have been able to hold the pace on the last 50- I was dying something fierce. jaadams brings up a good point and made me think about something. If I were doing a 500 fly, I would HATE to have to do flip turns- I think this would make it infinitely harder than doing open turns. So referring back to the OP, I still think open turns are the way to go at this point.

RE: Flip or open turns in distance races?

jaadams1 — Sun, 23 Jan 2011 09:47:57 GMT

I think today in a few hours I'm going to choose to do OPEN TURNS for my 500. Why? Of course because it's tough to do flip turns when you're swimming butterfly! I can't guarantee 2 hand touches on every wall though. :)

RE: Flip or open turns in distance races?

jaadams1 — Sun, 23 Jan 2011 08:42:38 GMT

In a 500 fly that is done during a "freestyle" event, I am not sure I would worry about flipturns or a lot of dolphin kicks off the walls. That would really make the last 400 hurt Well...after my fly day, the 500 being the last event, I'm definitely exhausted, but did very well, and had fun! 't do it, or don't know the satisfaction you get from accomplishing a hard task, etc. One of them is the 50-some year old hot shot breaskstroker in our LMSC that I'm going to beat in his events at the LMSC Champs...just to rub it in a little more... :banana:

RE: Flip or open turns in distance races?

Speedo — Sun, 23 Jan 2011 08:32:40 GMT

That's a nice time! Good swimming! I agree that in the 200 back, O2 management is important.Thanks. The OP hit on a topic that I feel like I've had a breakthrough on, so I thought it was a good example of doing something that's eschewed at the elite level, but may help us down here at the mere mortal level.

RE: Flip or open turns in distance races?

Former Member — Sat, 22 Jan 2011 14:27:18 GMT

I actually witnessed a high school level swimmer do a 100 free with open turns in under 58 seconds...

RE: Flip or open turns in distance races?

Former Member — Sat, 22 Jan 2011 14:12:19 GMT

David Radcliff is scarily fast for someone his age! I guess I should follow Ande's suggestion and try get someone to time my turns.

RE: Flip or open turns in distance races?

Former Member — Sat, 22 Jan 2011 12:06:28 GMT

I think it relates to aerobic capacity. At USMS Nationals in Clovis in 2009, I lap-counted for Dave Radcliff in the 500 free. About half way, he started doing open turns. I was a bit worried (to say the least) that something was wrong, so I asked his wife. She said, "no, he just finds he needs and gets more air that way in the longer races". He went 6:05, BTW, which I believe was a national record for his age group.:bow:

RE: Flip or open turns in distance races?

Former Member — Sat, 22 Jan 2011 10:14:28 GMT

If you feel like you are going into oxygen debt on the turn, an open turn may be better for you. I recently did a best time (almost a lifetime best) in a 200 backstroke just streamlining off of the wall and popping up with no kicking in an effort to conserve oxygen. Oxygen is underrated. What was your time?

RE: Flip or open turns in distance races?

ande — Sat, 22 Jan 2011 06:49:35 GMT

for most people flip turns are way faster than open turns so if you care about your time always FLIP your turns also push off hard, streamline skinny, and glide far and fast If your flip turns suck do open turns if you're not sure have someone time you in and out of the flags at your distance pace first with a flip turn next with an open turn find out what your difference is then multiply it by the number of turns in your race see which way is faster, mass moves much quicker through air than it does through water also there's many slow ways to do open turns and a few fast if you must do open turns, learn to turn faster so you waste less time

RE: Flip or open turns in distance races?

Karl_S — Sat, 22 Jan 2011 06:08:52 GMT

I went 5sec faster than last year in SCM- 2:17. It was the first time I tried the walls that way, and I feel like it helped me. That's a nice time! Good swimming! I agree that in the 200 back, O2 management is important.

RE: Flip or open turns in distance races?

Speedo — Sat, 22 Jan 2011 05:47:13 GMT

What was your time?I went 5sec faster than last year in SCM- 2:17. It was the first time I tried the walls that way, and I feel like it helped me.

RE: Flip or open turns in distance races?

Speedo — Sat, 22 Jan 2011 04:52:03 GMT

RE: Flip or open turns in distance races?

smontanaro — Sat, 22 Jan 2011 04:47:15 GMT

I'm not an elite swimmer. That said, I opt for flip turns if at all possible. When I first tried postal swims I needed to do open turns after awhile, but once I got my wind back, switched back to flip turns. I suspect it depends mostly on your aerobic conditioning and the efficiency of your flip turns. S

RE: Flip or open turns in distance races?

ourswimmer — Sat, 22 Jan 2011 04:00:39 GMT

I watched a lot of short course 1500s last weekend and even among the slower heats the vast majority of swimmers did flip turns on every turn. In a race with 59 turns, even a small increase in speed per turn adds up to a big decrease in overall race time.

RE: Flip or open turns in distance races?

orca1946 — Sat, 22 Jan 2011 02:53:37 GMT

Flips use the motion that you have to help in the turn, whereas open turns stop it. Take a deeper breath going into the flip.