Balls, flat, or clueless? [feet off the walls]

RE: Balls, flat, or clueless? [feet off the walls]

Former Member — Tue, 25 Jan 2011 15:35:38 GMT

I too have stayed out of this one until now...it is almost impossible to get a good push off with your feet flat, however, it is a better position to start the push from then just having the balls of your feet on the wall. Like Chris said above...you engage the calves more the closer your heels are to the wall. I think everyone is pretty much saying the same thing...it's how it's being said. 1. You want to start the push with your heels on or as close to the wall as possible. 2. You have to push off with the balls of your feet or you'll go nowhere. The more you engage your calves and other leg muscles, the further you'll go. I think tomtopo is confusing people by saying you push off flat footed. You might start that way...but at some point you have to flex the calves and push from the balls...or bad turn.

RE: Balls, flat, or clueless? [feet off the walls]

Former Member — Sun, 23 Jan 2011 14:56:08 GMT

I'm a convert to the flat-foot push. I guess I thought you'd push off a wall the same way you'd execute a high jump or a slam dunk. Turns out those jumps are off a flat foot, too. I already posted a high jumper. Here's a guy slam-dunking: YouTube - Brent Docter Slow Motion Dunk Contest His heels either touch the ground every time, or they get really close to the ground. Every dunking video I found had players jumping off a flat foot. This one is the easiest to see. The evidence for flat feet so far: - All elite swimmers presented push off flat-footed. - Similar dryland jumps - high jumping and dunking a basketball - involve flat-footed starts. The evidence for the balls of the foot so far: - Most swimmers do it. - Some, maybe most, coaches teach it. Advocates of the 'balls' approach would help their cause if they showed videos of elite or high achievers in swimming or other athletic endeavors pushing off/jumping that way. I really don't have a stake in this discussion, as I have a lot of other things to work on to get my times down. But if I were fast and competitive and wanting to shave a half-second off my 100, I'd sure look here.

RE: Balls, flat, or clueless? [feet off the walls]

philoswimmer — Sun, 23 Jan 2011 12:30:42 GMT

I should also point out that some of the most painful injuries I've ever suffered while swimming have to do with slamming my heels on the gutter on flipturns. I sure would hate to advocate being "flat-footed" if it leads to more incidents like that. I cringe even remembering some of those. And those heel bruises take a loooong time to heal. Ouch.

RE: Balls, flat, or clueless? [feet off the walls]

Chris Stevenson — Sun, 23 Jan 2011 11:35:53 GMT

While I have been following this discussion, I haven't weighed in b/c I think the stakes are so low. I think comparing to long jump, high jump or dunks is misleading because you are running up to the jump. And I think it is hard to tell from the swimming videos posted (tho I admit I haven't looked at all of them; again, not really a big issue IMO). I paid closer attention to my own turns. Weight on the balls of the feet, no question, but my heels brush the wall on many turns, and probably come pretty close on the others. Coming close to a flat foot -- while keeping the weight on the balls of your feet -- probably engages the calves some and increases propulsion. Why do I think this isn't that big a deal? -- most people have a decent sense of how to jump -- quads provide most of the propulsion in a pushoff -- SPEED of the turn is probably much more important than any of the stuff mentioned in this thread. If you are slow getting your legs over on a flipturn, take your time planting your feet, etc, then I don't care how strong your pushoff is, it is going to be a slow turn (similar considerations for an open turn). I've been swimming for awhile, I've heard coaches say many things about turns. The vast majority of these things relate to getting into the proper position quickly, having a good streamline off the turn, and breathing into/out of the turn. I guess that being flatfooted (or not) would be part of the "proper position" but, again, my experience is that MUCH more attention is paid to the proper angle for the legs and hips. AND GETTING TO THAT POINT QUICKLY! If you are spending any significant time at all getting into the exact optimum angle of your foot to the wall, it will slow you down, period. Your approach and turn should be such that the instant your feet hit the wall, you should be in a position to push off (or very close to it: open turns are a little different). Think of it as a hot plate: get your feet off the darn wall! I should also point out that some of the most painful injuries I've ever suffered while swimming have to do with slamming my heels on the gutter on flipturns. I sure would hate to advocate being "flat-footed" if it leads to more incidents like that. I cringe even remembering some of those. YMMV, of course. To a certain degree I think tomtopo and the other guy are talking past each other. I think that tomtopo is mostly arguing for greater engagement of the calves -- hard to disagree -- and the other guy is arguing that one shouldn't have the weight on the back of the foot. Again, hard to argue with that.

RE: Balls, flat, or clueless? [feet off the walls]

Former Member — Sat, 22 Jan 2011 13:53:08 GMT

This will be my last post for this thread and as the votes tell, I’m not winning any converts so the balls of the feet are winning. I offer the following videos (again and more) of great swimmers telling and showing you that planting your feet on the wall is an advantage. I suspect most coaches don’t spend a great deal of time training feet planting because when a swimmer has a great turn it’s looked at as a God given gift. I’d like to think that that turning technique is more than a gift. If you can get away from the wall nicely, by pushing off the balls of your feet, it shouldn’t negate coaches from helping their swimmers to develop a more effective habit (may take 6 to 8 weeks) of planting their feet more firmly on the wall and less on their toes. It’s not easy and as you can tell by the voting, not very well accepted. Look at the videos and the testimonies and think about it. I’ve heard Reese, Marsh, Kenny/Quick and other great coaches talk about planting feet firmly and feeling as if they’re (swimmers) bouncing off the walls like a trampoline. So thanks for your time and some nice and not so nice debate. Good luck, Coach T. Natalie Coughlin “Flip turns are much like jumping on land.” YouTube - Natalie Coughlin Swim Tip #5: Flip Turn Michael Phelps plants entire foot on wall YouTube - Michael Phelps turn Ian Thorpe “He places both feet (not balls of the feet) on the wall and literally bounces off the surface.” The last frames of the video show both feet clearly on the wall. YouTube - Ian Thorpe - Beneath the suit - the turn Brendan Hansen YouTube - Brendan Hansen Men's 200m Breastroke Testimonials “Land - Extend your legs, landing your feet squarely on the wall, toes pointing up. As you get better, you will want to be close enough to the wall to have your feet land with your knees and hips are bent appropriately, knees near a 90 degree angle, hips near 110 degrees.” The Basics of the Swimming Flip Turn Source: EnduranceCoach.com “With your feet firmly planted on the wall shoulder-width apart and your hands together, push off by extending your body until your arms are fully extended over your head in streamline position, and your legs are straight.” Perfecting Your Flip Turn Article from CTS Article By Natalie Bojko, Carmichael Training Systems Posted Apr. 11, 2008 “Extend your legs, landing your feet squarely on the wall, toes pointing up. As you get better, you will want to be close enough to the wall to have your feet land with your knees and hips are bent appropriately, knees near a 90 degree angle, hips near 110 degrees. “ The Freestyle Flip Turn for Swimmers - Basics of the Freestyle Swimming Flip The Basics of the Swimming Flip Turn By Mat Luebbers, About.com Guide “As you do the flip, have your legs rotate over from the hips and minimize bending at the knees. Have your feet land about 20 to 25 inches deep in the water and about 1 to 2 inches (ideally) from the wall (for an adult). After your feet come over, extend your legs and make gentle but quick contact with the wall with the bottoms of your feet” www.wikihow.com/Do-a-Flip-Turn-(Freestyle Well, I watched the first three videos, nothing conclusive. The only one that could maybe "flat" was Natalie, but these videos are also not at race pace or even close. You can even pause the video in places and see that they aren't flatfoot. BTW, I was coached by David Marsh (along with some other Olympic coaches and Masters WR holders) in my teens....he certainly never told me to push off flat foot. I'm with GG.....this is bunk.

RE: Balls, flat, or clueless? [feet off the walls]

JPSWMCCH — Sat, 22 Jan 2011 11:04:43 GMT

I agree with Jim Thornton that short axis strokers get a flatter, though still rolling, foot push-off, just because of the kind of turn that is done. While the long axis strokers tend to have more rolling off, emphasis, on the ball of the foot. On the HS boys' team that I help coach, we have a swimmer who has had 17 operations to set his former "club" feet straight. Because his ankles are very inflexible, he does a mostly flat feet pushoff; because he cannot 'roll' off the balls of his feet, he gets a little stuck before his breakout, but when he uses one dolphin kick, then flutters, he can almost make up for his lack of flexibility (he's mostly a distance s and that swimmer, so has many turns, but he can do a decent IM; also his calves/'gastrocs' are very underdeveloped), and has worked all year to improve his freestyle kick, which he has, so his shorter races have improved a fair amount. Think that ankle flexibility is extremely important, in all kicks, as well as for turns/pushoffs...and leg strength. Simple exercise:streamline position standing, go up on toes 10-20x/day will improve strength of leg/pushoffs), of course, many other exercises more difficult: examples: squat jumps to streamline position and variations, mid-pool 50s-streamline to past flags/red, kick to 12 1/2 or pullout on *** to mid-pool. See kids...and Masters...give up 1-3 feet on pushoff/streamline/kicks,pull-out/breakout can add up, because of lack of attention to it by swimmers and/or coaches. Like the ideas of the "5th stoke"/ red zone, that to improve, attention must be paid to this aspect of swimming...inluding the start!

RE: Balls, flat, or clueless? [feet off the walls]

Former Member — Sat, 22 Jan 2011 10:10:12 GMT

I agree with Coach GG!

RE: Balls, flat, or clueless? [feet off the walls]

Former Member — Sat, 22 Jan 2011 09:40:05 GMT

I’m not winning any converts so the balls of the feet are winning. You won't get any converts because it's totally wrong to do what you are suggesting. It's like arguing the case for a 'sitting' start and wondering why swimmers will still insist on diving off the blocks! If you can get away from the wall nicely, by pushing off the balls of your feet, it shouldn’t negate coaches from helping their swimmers to develop a more effective habit Please take my word for it, there is no more effective technique. I still suspect you haven't tried pushing off the wall with flat feet and heels touching. There's nothing wrong with the idea of looking for ways of improving swimming technique, and consequently speed, and I applaud you for attempting to find the holy grail. For the last four years I have been working on developing a new pull for front crawlers. I'm fortunate in having contact with many of the world's top masters swimmers who have introduced this into their training programme. In May, I'll be running Europe's premier masters training camp where 100 masters will be giving it a try. I'll report back.

RE: Balls, flat, or clueless? [feet off the walls]

Former Member — Sat, 22 Jan 2011 09:05:14 GMT

I am a balls guy, but I look at the vids provided and I see where Coach T is comming from. I also know that I should be swimming closer to the wall before starting my turn. Alas, I am a lazy, lazy guy. It makes sense to me that the foot should be flexed as much as possible before starting the push. That would mean that the heels are pretty darn close to touching the wall. If I took the extra half stroke, my heels would be in contact (or very close to it) and I would reap the rewards of a stronger push off, staying longer underwater, and dying the last ten yards of the race. I agree with Coach T.

RE: Balls, flat, or clueless? [feet off the walls]

Former Member — Sat, 22 Jan 2011 08:28:08 GMT

RE: Balls, flat, or clueless? [feet off the walls]

ourswimmer — Sat, 22 Jan 2011 04:27:22 GMT

I do not think tomtopo is advocating that the whole sole of the foot should contact the wall at once, or that one should wait to push off until the whole sole is against the wall. If he is, I disagree with him. What I think tomtopo is advocating, and what the videos he presented show, is that the swimmer should articulate through the foot during the push. The first contact between feet and wall is at the balls of the feet, but as the swimmer pushes the foot collapses toward the wall so that the heels touch or nearly touch. There's a nice image toward the end of the Ian Thorpe video, taken as he flipped against a glass wall, in which you can see this foot articulation. Especially for shorter races, I think this way is the best way to do it and it is the way I try to do it. When I race a good 50 back, which these days is my best race after the 1500/1650 (?!?), my heels contact the wall so that I can get a solid, powerful pushoff for the second 25. In distance races, especially short course, I tend not to push off quite as hard, not because the turns are less important (they are if anything more important) but because I can't repeat a jump at maximum power 59+ times within 20 minutes.

RE: Balls, flat, or clueless? [feet off the walls]

Jimbosback — Sat, 22 Jan 2011 04:11:37 GMT

Can I ask members here to try pushing off the walls with flat feet, then report back? It is clear to me that many posters in this thread haven't even tried it... I tried in my workout yesterday. I found that collapsing my foot just enough to let the heels touch really engages a lot more leg muscles, like Coach T is saying. It was not faster for me, but I can see how it could be if I work on it. The feeling was the same as doing squats. If you start on your toes a little, for balance, and slowly rock back toward your heels, there is a sweet spot where your leg muscles feel like they're all perfectly aligned.

RE: Balls, flat, or clueless? [feet off the walls]

Former Member — Fri, 21 Jan 2011 16:57:20 GMT

RE: Balls, flat, or clueless? [feet off the walls]

Former Member — Fri, 21 Jan 2011 16:28:20 GMT

... I NEVER EVER pushed off with a flat foot. Not even when starting a set from a push. The only flat foot I use is on the start on the blocks. I even tried it (a flat foot flip turn) and talk about screwed up.....this is BAD advice IMHO. In 30 plus years of swimming I've never heard it... I'd never coach this to someone to use in competition....EVER. Sanity prevails at last!! Can I ask members here to try pushing off the walls with flat feet, then report back? It is clear to me that many posters in this thread haven't even tried it. I coach two sessions a day, masters in the morning and age-groupers at night. All swimmers (57 turned up for training) gave this a try yesterday. Every one of them agreed it was a ridiculous thing to do.

RE: Balls, flat, or clueless? [feet off the walls]

Former Member — Fri, 21 Jan 2011 15:44:46 GMT

Pushing off the wall with a flat foot for a turn is the best way and should be taught and every swimmer who wants a faster time should work at it. I have always had a hard time pushing off the wall from a flat foot. Some of the things we need to improve to drop times may seem insignificant but sometimes even a little improvement can be very important to a swimmer. Good luck, Coach T. This must be the biggest wind-up of all time!! Pushing off the wall with a flat foot? If you are proposing using this technique, I'd like to know how good the swimmers are, that you coach.

RE: Balls, flat, or clueless? [feet off the walls]

Former Member — Fri, 21 Jan 2011 15:22:04 GMT

RE: Balls, flat, or clueless? [feet off the walls]

Former Member — Fri, 21 Jan 2011 14:16:47 GMT

Lump, The post number 27 has the videos. Why would pushing off a wall from in the water be different from pushing off from any other surface? I know this is a joke but their are swimmers on this site who really want to get better and anecdotal evidence is not helping them. Good luck, Coach T.

RE: Balls, flat, or clueless? [feet off the walls]

Former Member — Fri, 21 Jan 2011 13:05:43 GMT

the balls have it

RE: Balls, flat, or clueless? [feet off the walls]

philoswimmer — Fri, 21 Jan 2011 09:23:02 GMT

It's not just a push. It's flipping into the right position quickly and getting off the wall quickly, too.

RE: Balls, flat, or clueless? [feet off the walls]

Former Member — Fri, 21 Jan 2011 09:09:49 GMT

Michael Phelps does it. Natalie Coughlin does it. Brendan Hansen does it. I've listened to some of the best coaches in the world describe the collapse of the foot onto the wall. Yike, don't get personal, just look at the videos. You'll find world class athletes, push-off the wall from a flat foot. Michael Phelp's coach works to improve his stroke, it must mean he doesn't do things perfectly. If we coach from what we believe is correct doesn't make it correct. Sorry this discussion has gotten you briefs in a gather. Take a deep breath. I concede that some swimmers don't push-off from a flat foot and my contention is that if the learned how to push-off from a flat foot they'd go farther and faster. Your contention is that I'm wrong. I can live with that but the insults aren't necessary. Link the videos. I thought about this post during workout today and I NEVER EVER pushed off with a flat foot. Not even when starting a set from a push. The only flat foot I use is on the start on the blocks. I even tried it (a flat foot flip turn) and talk about screwed up.....we aren't doing squats underwater on the push. I'm with the previous poster....this is BAD advice IMHO. In 30 plus years of swimming I've never heard it. Using it as a "drill" to build power in the legs is one thing, but I'd never coach this to someone to use in competition....EVER.

RE: Balls, flat, or clueless? [feet off the walls]

philoswimmer — Fri, 21 Jan 2011 01:40:57 GMT

I don't seem to have the calf flexibility necessary to get my feet flat on the wall (at least not easily). Perhaps my legs are in the wrong position? I am surprised that no one has said anything about whether the average swimmer (not your top swimmer) will be faster this way. It seems to me that one possibility is that your average swimmer will spend more time on the wall with a flat-footed push, even if (as some have argued here) you are able to push off farther.

RE: Balls, flat, or clueless? [feet off the walls]

__steve__ — Fri, 21 Jan 2011 01:02:19 GMT

When you want to improve your turns you’ll need to strenghten you hip and thigh flexor muscles or your Pectineus, Sartrorius muscles, Gastrocnemius and the Soleus (they’re crucial in jumping). There are a lot of plyometric exercises along with squats, lunges, and bounding exercises that will also help you. Here’s a list of other exercises that can help you get you or your swimmers off the wall faster and farther. Bounding Lunges Deep Knee Bends Deep Knee Bend Jumps Toe Raises Toe-Raise with Weights Jumping Rope Get your foot on the wall and use all the muscles listed above. I hope some of you are with me and teach good turns. Good luck, Coach T.I have good power in the mentioned areas, I just suck at turning probably because I taught myself and never been coached (as well as coordination challenges at times perhaps). I think a good turn just requires timing, position, streamline, and executing all this stuff together. I will try flat foot again, but the last time I tried it sent me launching towards the bottom, but at good speed.

RE: Balls, flat, or clueless? [feet off the walls]

Former Member — Thu, 20 Jan 2011 15:41:04 GMT

I looked at several high jumpers videos, and it looks like they are flat footed with every step on the approach, including their launch. This one has the clearest video: YouTube - Men's High Jump (Slow Motion) - Greg Shroka clears 7 feet (Slo-mo begins at the 1:00 mark) Interesting, since I always thought they ran on their toes. Also interesting is tomtopo's Michael Phelps video. Near the end, they show his backstroke start. There, he is on his toes. I'm no racer - why would this be different? The angle of the body isn't conducive for a flat foot start. If their was an angled starting block (like track) the foot could have full contact on a surface.

RE: Balls, flat, or clueless? [feet off the walls]

Former Member — Wed, 19 Jan 2011 17:19:07 GMT

Jeeeeeez!!! You guys will be touching the walls with your elbows next!!

RE: Balls, flat, or clueless? [feet off the walls]

Former Member — Wed, 19 Jan 2011 16:37:22 GMT