Rules I'd like to see repealed

RE: Rules I'd like to see repealed

Former Member — Tue, 14 Dec 2010 11:44:06 GMT

There is already a sport where mediocrity is rewarded - triathlons. Ouch. Guilty as charged. :D

RE: Rules I'd like to see repealed

Former Member — Tue, 14 Dec 2010 10:01:09 GMT

I'd like for the USA-S rule about officials uniforms to be reviewed. They are extremely nerdy...

RE: Rules I'd like to see repealed

Chris Stevenson — Tue, 14 Dec 2010 09:09:29 GMT

How is that any different from any other sport where parents serve as VOLUNTEER officials? I've seen paid officials in other sports act much worse about nit picking than I've ever seen in USA-S meets. The #1 rule of USA-S is that the swimmer gets the benefit of the doubt and that is reinforced at every briefing. The rules are the rules. If I start paying attention to some and not others, what is the point of having rules? What is nit picky to one is not to the other. I just call what I see and don't make distinctions in the rules. I am not familiar enough with other sports to compare, nor am I interested. Of course rules are rules, but there is often a gray area of interpretation, and I don't know if everyone is as zealous as you seem to be at giving the swimmer the benefit of the doubt. I could cite any number of examples, but really what's the point? I freely acknowledge they are the exception and not the rule. Generally I am very happy with swimming officiating; it is human nature to remember those exceptions that leave one less-than-thrilled. Volunteers have my respect, especially those whose kids have long since gone off to college but they still donate their time/energy to the sport because their skills are in-demand and haven't been replaced yet. And I certainly understand -- I have felt it myself from time to time -- that one can resent what can seem to be constant griping from people who nevertheless contribute nothing to help things out.

RE: Rules I'd like to see repealed

Former Member — Tue, 14 Dec 2010 09:02:04 GMT

Oh. Apologies then. That isn't what I think of when I hear "losing it." None required. I was VERY animated, when I am usually quite reserved and polite. It was the (what I considered to be the pedantic) way he informed me of the violations that got me going...

RE: Rules I'd like to see repealed

aquageek — Tue, 14 Dec 2010 07:55:52 GMT

And while I really, truly, whole-heartedly admire the volunteer officials and their dedication -- and think that 99% of them are regular folk who roll their eyes at that sort of thing -- USA-S officiating can sometimes seems to be full of nit-picky practices like this. I saw an official pull a 11-yo girl off the blocks for a delay-of-meet DQ. She was maybe 5 sec late getting on the blocks -- TOPS -- and the DQ and resulting melodrama probably took 5 min. How is that any different from any other sport where parents serve as VOLUNTEER officials? I've seen paid officials in other sports act much worse about nit picking than I've ever seen in USA-S meets. The #1 rule of USA-S is that the swimmer gets the benefit of the doubt and that is reinforced at every briefing. The rules are the rules. If I start paying attention to some and not others, what is the point of having rules? What is nit picky to one is not to the other. I just call what I see and don't make distinctions in the rules. What I like about swimming versus other sports for kids is that the rules you learn are the same at age six as they are at age 18, and beyond. This is compared to the wildly varied rules and nuances of Pop Warner, Little League/Cal Ripken, etc. Our LSC mandates that the 12/unders can't have a session longer than 4 hours or a financial penalty is imposed (maybe this is universal, I don't know beyond our LSC). I think this is a fantastic rule. If you start allowing counters for all free events and calling heats you will lose events or add sessions. You'd be surprised how important 10 minutes here or 15 minutes there is at a meet where you are trying to cram 400 swimmers in 4 hours.

RE: Rules I'd like to see repealed

Former Member — Tue, 14 Dec 2010 06:43:20 GMT

... made it clear in a one-to-one, private conversation that I thought the rule was a bit OTT for little kids swimming a 200 for the first time, and that it seemed a great way to discourage younger kids from swimming more than a 100. Oh. Apologies then. That isn't what I think of when I hear "losing it."

RE: Rules I'd like to see repealed

Former Member — Tue, 14 Dec 2010 06:25:25 GMT

The stuff you cite might be irritating, for sure. But it seems like small stuff. "Bush league," indeed. Except for "losing it" on an official. That strikes me as HUGE. Can officials ban parents permanently from meets? If not, that might be a good rule change. Several posters have harped on my "losing it" comment. I didn't yell at the guy, embarrass him in front of others, etc - simply made it clear in a one-to-one, private conversation that I thought the rule was a bit OTT for little kids swimming a 200 for the first time, and that it seemed a great way to discourage younger kids from swimming more than a 100. (As an aside, I did not enter my 7 yr old in a 200 - the club coach did, and I was as surprised at this as some of the posters here have been). FWIW, I have been attending age group meets as a competitor, parent, volunteer and club board member for nearly 40 years. I am not the "prototypical swimmer parent" by any stretch. Again, my issue is not so much with the rule (which I consider a strange one), but with how I was approached by the MD, who I have known for years... and respect.

RE: Rules I'd like to see repealed

Former Member — Tue, 14 Dec 2010 06:00:26 GMT

I absolutely lost it . The stuff you cite might be irritating, for sure. But it seems like small stuff. "Bush league," indeed. Except for "losing it" on an official. That strikes me as HUGE. Can officials ban parents permanently from meets? If not, that might be a good rule change.

RE: Rules I'd like to see repealed

Former Member — Mon, 13 Dec 2010 14:52:01 GMT

That's the kind of...well, idiocy...that makes people see red. And while I really, truly, whole-heartedly admire the volunteer officials and their dedication -- and think that 99% of them are regular folk who roll their eyes at that sort of thing -- USA-S officiating can sometimes seems to be full of nit-picky practices like this. I saw an official pull a 11-yo girl off the blocks for a delay-of-meet DQ. She was maybe 5 sec late getting on the blocks -- TOPS -- and the DQ and resulting melodrama probably took 5 min. And don't even get me started on the uniforms. You've made my point much more eloquently and succinctly than I ever could...

RE: Rules I'd like to see repealed

Former Member — Mon, 13 Dec 2010 14:18:48 GMT

Why should a 200 (and is it only 200 Free that needs one???) require the use of counters? I don't get it myself but maybe I'm missing something. I guess because some kids have ADD/ADHD, AC-DC, etc and aren't (yet) able to focus. Or because their coach decided to enter them in the 200 at age 7 (or 6), and they have some anxiety about losing count. Back to my original post, this is not Senior Nationals or Olympic Trials, but a local B/A meet. Not that the type of meet should be an issue. If the reason for "no counters" is that brings too many people onto the deck and could hinder the officials, fair enough. But I don't see how counting for a little kid either hinders the other kids in the heat or aids the one being counted for (unless you consider helping them keep count "aid").

RE: Rules I'd like to see repealed

Former Member — Mon, 13 Dec 2010 11:55:57 GMT

It seems that the official didn't meet your standards of decorum, and hurt your feelings. Or, And, Plus, I trust you didn't "lose it" in front of children. Hopefully your child is proud of a 3:30. I wonder who is more upset about the DQ, you or your child? I suggest you stay in the bleachers and read the rule book. Comments noted, and accorded the respect that they deserve...

RE: Rules I'd like to see repealed

Former Member — Mon, 13 Dec 2010 11:46:13 GMT

But just because you think it's stupid, doesn't mean it's not in place for a very valid reason. I agree that the opinions on the relative usefulness or not of various rules and regs will differ.

RE: Rules I'd like to see repealed

Chris Stevenson — Mon, 13 Dec 2010 09:28:21 GMT

So, repeal the rule about lap counters for less than 16 lengths. To Paul and other official-types: what is the purpose of this rule? To save time? (I'm really asking, not trying to pick a fight or anything.) I don't know if this is a rule or not, or a "best practices" kind of thing. But I get annoyed about the way announcers are not allowed to give the event number except on heat 1. So for example they'll say "Event 12, heat 1" and from then on "heat 2" and "heat 3" and so on. So if you miss the number on the first one, you don't know what event they are on. They did this at the NE Championship (USMS) meet this past weekend as well, but it wasn't a big deal b/c the scoreboard displayed the event and heat number. But at our facility, there are a lot of seating areas without a direct view of the pool so you can't see the heat in the water to know what they are swimming. I seriously doubt saying "event 12, heat 4" is going to add significant time to the meet. When I asked the officials about this, they said the reason they do it is because the practice (ie, purposefully withholding information) encourages people to pay closer attention. That's the kind of...well, idiocy...that makes people see red. And while I really, truly, whole-heartedly admire the volunteer officials and their dedication -- and think that 99% of them are regular folk who roll their eyes at that sort of thing -- USA-S officiating can sometimes seems to be full of nit-picky practices like this. I saw an official pull a 11-yo girl off the blocks for a delay-of-meet DQ. She was maybe 5 sec late getting on the blocks -- TOPS -- and the DQ and resulting melodrama probably took 5 min. And don't even get me started on the uniforms.

RE: Rules I'd like to see repealed

Former Member — Mon, 13 Dec 2010 09:25:34 GMT

Counting for a 200 is borderline silly. How about a rule that bans rabid parents from the pool deck?

RE: Rules I'd like to see repealed

pwolf66 — Mon, 13 Dec 2010 08:51:43 GMT

They don't have the 500 for 11-12? If they do, then only meets for 10&U wouldn't require counters now. I guess there are some, but my feeling is most facilities already have counters. Reading is fundamental :angel: 40% of the meets that have 12&U sessions do not offer distance (500 or longer) events for 12&Us. And no, not every pool in PVS that hosts meets has lap counters. But no one has answered the question asked by Geek. Why should a 200 (and is it only 200 Free that needs one???) require the use of counters? I don't get it myself but maybe I'm missing something.

RE: Rules I'd like to see repealed

knelson — Mon, 13 Dec 2010 08:35:39 GMT

If counters are allowed for 200s, then there are a significant (I think about 40%) of the meets in my area that would have to maintain counters for sessions as they do not have 500 Free for 12&Us. They don't have the 500 for 11-12? If they do, then only meets for 10&U wouldn't require counters now. I guess there are some, but my feeling is most facilities already have counters.

RE: Rules I'd like to see repealed

Former Member — Mon, 13 Dec 2010 08:31:30 GMT

It seems that the official didn't meet your standards of decorum, and hurt your feelings. My problem is not even so much with the rule - which is idiotic - but with the way the MD approached me. Or,Also, just 'cause someone is a volunteer and puts in many hours at , doesn't mean they can't be a tactless d-bag. And, There are many arbitrary, idiotic rules, and not allowing lap counters for little kids is one of them. And just because a rule is a rule, doesn't mean it's not stupid. Plus,I absolutely lost it (I don't care for anal retentive meet directors, and his approach tee'd me off) I trust you didn't "lose it" in front of children. Hopefully your child is proud of a 3:30. I wonder who is more upset about the DQ, you or your child? I suggest you stay in the bleachers and read the rule book.

RE: Rules I'd like to see repealed

Former Member — Mon, 13 Dec 2010 08:05:52 GMT

I'll split the baby with you. Allow counters on any distance but no parents on deck. How about that? Agreed. I can see where we don't need raging moms/dads on deck, accidentally bumping officials into the pool. Fine to say only coaches or other swimmers may count. Also, just 'cause someone is a volunteer and puts in many hours at , doesn't mean they can't be a tactless d-bag. :D

RE: Rules I'd like to see repealed

Former Member — Mon, 13 Dec 2010 07:59:21 GMT

I like a good old fashioned disagreement. In the unlikely event I was at this meet and not officiating and saw some parent counting for their kid in a 200 I would have immediately raised a stink. It isn't about the kid it benefits as much as about the other kids who it may distract. If I was officiating the meet I would also have DQ'd the swimmer, sorry, them be the rules. It doesn't matter if a rule is perceived as a technicality, it is a rule and should be enforced. Technically, every rule is a technicality. Now, if the meet officials had offered counting for all kids I would have been fine with it. But, the times would not be counted for those that used a counter since it does violate a few rules. I would be interested in pwolf's view on this. I am amazed to disagree with Geek. My problem is not even so much with the rule - which is idiotic - but with the way the MD approached me. What's the problem with saying something along the lines of "hey, sorry to let you know, but you can't use counters even for a 7 year old in a 200"? I fail to see how this rule hinders anyone. There are many arbitrary, idiotic rules, and not allowing lap counters for little kids is one of them. And just because a rule is a rule, doesn't mean it's not stupid. YMMV.

RE: Rules I'd like to see repealed

Former Member — Mon, 13 Dec 2010 06:41:52 GMT

This weekend our local club hosted its annual December meet. 500 kids each day in an indoor, 6 lane 25y pool. Fortunately, it's split session, with 11-14 in the am, and 10/u and 15/o in the pm. My 7 year old swam his first competitive 200y free ever the first night (Fri). Although he shows no fear, he was worried about losing count. So I told him I would use the lap counter for him. He went 3:30(!). The next morning, within 30 secs of arriving on the deck, I got cornered by the meet director and was told that I had violated several USAS rules, the main two being "interfering with the swimmer" and "using a counter for a race of less than 16 lengths". I absolutely lost it (I don't care for anal retentive meet directors, and his approach tee'd me off), and told him that that had to be the stupidest of many stupid USAS rules, and if they wanted to discourage young kids from swimming more than a 50, this was the way to do it.:bitching: So, repeal the rule about lap counters for less than 16 lengths.

RE: Rules I'd like to see repealed

pwolf66 — Mon, 13 Dec 2010 05:29:54 GMT

I don't personally care which it is, as long as it is the same for all courses. The "not a backstroker" crack was for anyone who thinks it is no problem at all to switch between two different distances. Since no one else in the civilized world uses yards, and two of our 3 seasons are based on meters, I figured 5m is more palatable. Chris, I can fully get behind this but I wish it was a simple as saying 'so let it be written, so let it be done!!!'

RE: Rules I'd like to see repealed

pwolf66 — Mon, 13 Dec 2010 05:28:23 GMT

I don't think I've ever attended a meet (when I was 11 or older) where there wasn't at least one event requiring counters, so odds are if you're hosting a meet you need the counters anyway. If counters are allowed for 200s, then there are a significant (I think about 40%) of the meets in my area that would have to maintain counters for sessions as they do not have 500 Free for 12&Us.

RE: Rules I'd like to see repealed

tjrpatt — Mon, 13 Dec 2010 05:26:49 GMT

I don't personally care which it is, as long as it is the same for all courses. The "not a backstroker" crack was for anyone who thinks it is no problem at all to switch between two different distances. Since no one else in the civilized world uses yards, and two of our 3 seasons are based on meters, I figured 5m is more palatable. After missing every walls on a recent 200 SCM back, it seems that yards and LCM are the same length to me. You would think that they would be the same for the SCM and LCM, not LCM and Yards.

RE: Rules I'd like to see repealed

Chris Stevenson — Mon, 13 Dec 2010 04:57:08 GMT

Chris, I like the flags set at 5 yards better than 5 meters. :) And I think I'm a backstroker. However, I agree that it would preferable if the distance was uniform. I don't personally care which it is, as long as it is the same for all courses. The "not a backstroker" crack was for anyone who thinks it is no problem at all to switch between two different distances. Since no one else in the civilized world uses yards, and two of our 3 seasons are based on meters, I figured 5m is more palatable.

RE: Rules I'd like to see repealed

aquageek — Mon, 13 Dec 2010 04:34:17 GMT

I don't understand why it would add to the timeline. My suggestion was to make counters optional. There would be no time wasted to make sure counters were in place. Heats would start just like normal. The starter wouldn't check or even need to comment on whether or not counters were present. Theoretically yes but changing out 6,8, or 10 counters per events would tend to muck up the works. I still haven't seen a compelling reason for having masses of counters on deck for free events. The kids need to learn. Stillwater - many large aquatic complexes don't allow parents on deck, especially if there is bleacher spectator seating above. This forces the kids to get to their heats (or miss them).