DQ'd

RE: DQ'd

aztimm — Sun, 12 Dec 2010 11:22:25 GMT

Ha ha! I did something much like that at a meet yesterday. Sometime between getting on the block and hitting the water, I had forgotten I was swimming *** stroke. I caught myself in time, but my underwater pull was *barely* beneath the surface. I'm sure it was brutally ugly but no DQ. I did the same exact thing at a LCM meet in June. Don't know what I was thinking, dove in, did at least 5, maybe 6, fly kicks, then realized it was a 50 ***, so I did my arm thing and surfaced. I just did a 90% or so effort to finish, expecting a DQ. But that never arrived. I still finished first in the heat, but was a far cry from any records. A couple of people stopped by after to give me feedback, all commenting how my 50 *** was paced more like a 200. Then I told them why....

RE: DQ'd

rlee — Sun, 12 Dec 2010 08:28:29 GMT

The fews times I have been DQ'd I totally deserved it! All for leaving early on relay starts, and it was indeed me diving (barely making it!) over the incoming relay swimmer's body. I think a toe touch one time! I got sooooo excited and I still smile when I think about how much fun it was!!!! The DQ issue is an interesting one, and one that I have thought about in preparing for races. It's a possibility any time, but not probable. Anyway, here's how I rationalize it: 1. The WORST thing that could happen is that you don't even make it to the blocks. That's a REAL problem, because it means I am either injured or really sick. 2. The next is a bummer, where you can't make it because you have some other commitment, like work. But that's rarely the case. Of course, I was on the witness stand from 10Am to 4PM this past week and thank goodness it wasn't on a swim meet day! I thought i'd only be on the stand for like an hour! Boy was my bum sore! 3. You false start. 4. You swim and get DQ'd 5. You have a "bad" race The question is, Am taking it "too seriously" if I get really upset about it? One thing that has really helped me "take risks" is to race often, that is, not placing "all my eggs in one basket". You might be surprised when, where, and in what event you will do great swims!! This weekend I was all prepared to do a local meet (USA). I was gloating because it's at a very familiar pool, annual local big meet, and while I always prefer masters, the tradeoff is that I would not have to travel. There were many choices for USA or masters meet this weekend! I emailed my entries to the coach on 10/31/10 and he confirm replied on 11/01/10. After a very stressful week (and I never knew I knew so much about bankruptcy, testifying for like 6 hours!!), I packed the car, confirmed babysitting, and then for grins just checked the team website for my entry. IT WASN"T THERE!!!!! Long story short, the coach had not entered me, which is USA entry-speak, meant I was totally shut out of the meet! I spent the entire evening emailing with him, the other coach, and trying to find out if I could still fly out to San Antonio or Long beach, or anywhere on Sat to swim on Sun (no, because no deck entries). The officials were emailing with the coach and at 11:17pm said they didn't know for sure, and that they'd let me know by 7am the morning of the meet........ The next morning I checked and found I was in! Of course, I was placed in Heat 1 of all my events, but at least I would get the opportunity to swim! Drumroll please.......lifetime best in 100 back; masters best in 100 *** (and that's saying alot, since i've been racing since 1993!), and very solid 50 free/100free/100 fly times. I'm glad I still went and made the effort. The point of that story is you win some, you lose some. I still feel so lucky that the officials let me in the meet. My coach said in his 23+ years, they have NEVER allowed anyone that exception. And that fact that they were still doing "meet stuff" way long after the first day was over, I really appreciate all the things that these people do. My sister is now an official, and I know it is physically tough (S&T judges standing for hours in the Az sun!!!) and having to watch 4 lanes, heat after heat, event after event. It is not easy. And she's a volunteer!!!!! And back to the DQ: I pump myself up by saying: The way I see it, I am way long overdue for a technical DQ or a mistake (ie, missing a 2 hand touch on fly, which happened in practice and that was kind of a shock!) I would be disappointed, but not devestated, no matter where or when the event occurs. There are so many opportunities in the span of my career (remaining 40's, then 50, 60, 70's etc!!!) that this will be a blimp on the screen. So just go out there and do it! love this message!!! I love swimming and you know I am just lucky to swim. I get DQd because I am a beginner and I am ok with it because that is how I learn. I just had a bad meet but who cares..It is just a meet and I have fun. I for sure was lucky I was there because I had a very bad week and day that day. So I swam good for how I was feeling... I appreciate the officials. It must be hard for them. I am thankful they are there for us. Sometimes I think probably people make fun of me because I can't swim well.. Then I just think you know I am in for fun. I know I will never be a champ but at least I can swim..:o)

RE: DQ'd

jethro — Sun, 12 Dec 2010 08:02:26 GMT

My only dq in an individual event was a 50 last year. Great start, 3 strong sdk, broke the surface and then remembered, it was a *** stroke event. You know your are getting to be an elder swimmer when you forget what event you are swimming between the block and the water. :cane: I nearly drowned from laughing. ww Ha ha! I did something much like that at a meet yesterday. Sometime between getting on the block and hitting the water, I had forgotten I was swimming *** stroke. I caught myself in time, but my underwater pull was *barely* beneath the surface. I'm sure it was brutally ugly but no DQ. After that, on each event, I kept reminding myself over and over again what event I was doing once I was on the block: "Jethro, now you're swimming fly, now you're swimming fly, now you're swimming fly..." lol

RE: DQ'd

jaadams1 — Sun, 12 Dec 2010 04:14:49 GMT

The most recent DQ that was "funny" was for an elderly teammate of mine. We travelled to a meet outside our LMSC where they were running the meet a little more fast paced than he was used to (starting next heat 15 sec. or so after the previous & not checking the empty lanes to see if the person was there or not). Whistle had blown, they were started. My teammate was still standing behind the timers talking. I think he was getting phone #'s from the younger ladies for later. :bliss: He figured out that was his heat, put his goggles on got on the blocks and dove in to chase them. Probably started 15 yards behind the rest. After the 100 IM he finished knowing he messed up, came back smiling with his DQ slip. It said DQ for "delay of meet". The problem there is that the meet wasn't "delayed" even a few seconds because he actually beat 2 of the swimmers in the heat even though he started 15 yards behind them!! In fact, his time even with the delayed start would have been an age group record in our area also, had he not been DQ'd. :cheerleader::bow:

RE: DQ'd

pakman044 — Sat, 11 Dec 2010 11:57:43 GMT

@osterber... Video shot by a kid's parents was used to overturn a call at a large USA-S meet here in Florida last weekend... Still doesn't make it legal: 34. A visiting nationally-known college coach is in attendance at an LSC Junior Olympic meet to observe some local swimmers. He is videotaping several events. A stroke disqualification is called in an event, and it is accepted by the referee but eventually protested in writing by another coach. The college coach tells the disqualified swimmer's coach that he has the swim on tape and it probably will show that there was no DQ. The protesting coach demands that the referee review the tape and change his decision. What should the referee do? Recommended Resolution: The disqualification should stand, disallowing the protest. A Technical Jury cannot adjudicate judgment decisions -- only the referee may adjudicate judgment decisions. In addition, USA Swimming has not approved any videotape devices or the use of them to resolve such protests. The referee may view the tape for educational purposes; however, there is no obligation to do so. Applicable Rules 102.13.1, 102.11.1 74. After the relay results are posted, the winning team approaches the meet referee stating that they do not deserve the medal because their third swimmer left early and they have it on film. What do you do? Recommended Resolution: First, check with the administrative referee to determine if a DQ was called but just not recorded in the results. If there was, the results should be amended accordingly. If there was no DQ, the results must stand as is. We do not review video to make calls. If the challenge to the results was made by another team, we would not allow it as relay take-offs are judgment calls. Applicable Rules: 102.10.1, 102.15.6A, 102.15.6B Granted, these two situations were written back in 2006 (it's from the USA Swimming Referee Situation Resolutions document), but they're still on the books as recommended interpretations. There does not seem to have been any appreciable change in the wording of cited rules since 2006, and given that this ruling comports with what I have always been told that video cannot be used for review in typical USA Swimming meets. In high school, the rules explicitly prohibit any video review (NFHS 4-1-4). In NCAA, video replay is only permitted to determine whether the relay take off judging equipment is properly working and for no other purpose with nearly a half page of conditions and stipulations regarding its use (NCAA 4-14-7: "...The result of the video is merely to determine if the electronic judging equipment has failed. The video shall not be used to detect early takeoffs or any other rule infractions...."). Patrick King

RE: DQ'd

pwolf66 — Sat, 11 Dec 2010 08:51:13 GMT

Legal or not... Kinda the point of bringing this up. While NCAA and HS has clear rules on video usage, Masters and USA-S does not. And while there is a mention in the "recommended" resolution document there is nothing stated in the rule book. If its not explicitly stated there then it may be open to interpretation on the deck. This is why I initially asked if anyone had tried. Only one person mentioned that they had tried (and failed) but I mainly got comments on its legality that ranged from quite informative to really snarky. I personally would like the option to have the officials review video but I understand the idea of equity across the lanes. You may have a point that the USA-S rules do not explicitly deny the use of video. But there is evidence that an implicit deny exists. There is great detail on the types and jurisdictions of each official, the types of timing systems to be used, the length of the pools, the heights of the blocks, the depth of the water as it relates to starts, the height and placement of the falgs, etc but there is never a mention of how video equipment is to be used, nor is there a mention of a Chief Videographer or any other type of official related to taking or reviewing video.

RE: DQ'd

pwolf66 — Sat, 11 Dec 2010 08:37:11 GMT

@osterber... Video shot by a kid's parents was used to overturn a call at a large USA-S meet here in Florida last weekend... I hope this is not true because if true, then the deck Ref, the meet Ref and the meet director should be tossed. There is absolutely NO provision for allowing video review to be used in ANY USA-S meet. USOC maybe, but not USA-S. The officials did not follow proper guidelines and again, if true (and I have trouble buying), have opened up a huge :worms:. Could you provide more details that just 'a large USA-S meet'?

RE: DQ'd

swimshark — Sat, 11 Dec 2010 07:37:14 GMT

RE: DQ'd

Former Member — Sat, 11 Dec 2010 06:54:17 GMT

Still doesn't make it legal: Granted, these two situations were written back in 2006 (it's from the USA Swimming Referee Situation Resolutions document), but they're still on the books as recommended interpretations. There does not seem to have been any appreciable change in the wording of cited rules since 2006, and given that this ruling comports with what I have always been told that video cannot be used for review in typical USA Swimming meets. In high school, the rules explicitly prohibit any video review (NFHS 4-1-4). In NCAA, video replay is only permitted to determine whether the relay take off judging equipment is properly working and for no other purpose with nearly a half page of conditions and stipulations regarding its use (NCAA 4-14-7: "...The result of the video is merely to determine if the electronic judging equipment has failed. The video shall not be used to detect early takeoffs or any other rule infractions...."). Patrick King Legal or not... Kinda the point of bringing this up. While NCAA and HS has clear rules on video usage, Masters and USA-S does not. And while there is a mention in the "recommended" resolution document there is nothing stated in the rule book. If its not explicitly stated there then it may be open to interpretation on the deck. This is why I initially asked if anyone had tried. Only one person mentioned that they had tried (and failed) but I mainly got comments on its legality that ranged from quite informative to really snarky. I personally would like the option to have the officials review video but I understand the idea of equity across the lanes.

RE: DQ'd

TRYM_Swimmer — Sat, 11 Dec 2010 05:21:18 GMT

My only dq in an individual event was a 50 last year. Great start, 3 strong sdk, broke the surface and then remembered, it was a *** stroke event. You know your are getting to be an elder swimmer when you forget what event you are swimming between the block and the water. :cane: I nearly drowned from laughing. ww Reminds me of a DNS at Nats in KY many years ago when I was sitting behind my block waiting for my heat. The gun went off for the heat before mine, and I got up for my heat and noticed there was no one in my lane in the heat that just started. YES, it was my heat and I miscounted! And I was too young to call it a Senior Moment!

RE: DQ'd

Former Member — Fri, 10 Dec 2010 15:20:42 GMT

Video review is not permitted. And the reasoning behind it not being permitted is due to equality. If swimmer A's race is videoed by someone, and that video is used to overturn a call but swimmer B's race is not then there is not an even enforcement for both swimmers. To be able to use any method of judging, there has to be the same level of judging for every swimmer. That's the reason why S&Ts are briefed to 'judge' empty lanes as well as the lanes that have swimmers to ensure that each lane in their jurisdiction receives as close to the same level of scrutiny as is possible. Yes, FINA is starting to use video at the elite level meets but that is because it is being used for every swimmer in every race. At the local level that is impossible due to cost, scale, time, etc. @osterber... Video shot by a kid's parents was used to overturn a call at a large USA-S meet here in Florida last weekend...

RE: DQ'd

Former Member — Fri, 10 Dec 2010 10:45:41 GMT

RE: DQ'd

Former Member — Fri, 10 Dec 2010 09:39:43 GMT

I DQed myself a year ago. Having just started dolphin kicking and learning the butterfly, I dove off the blocks for a 50 breaststroke. Alas, I started with several dolphin kicks, and more of a fly breakout than a breaststroke. So, I turned around and went back. Although I was in lane 1, the starter and deck ref wondered why the heck I returned. No one saw my DQ. Served a lesson for me, and something I learned when I became an official myself. What officials don't see they don't call. So, keep going, which is what I did this past weekend in another 50 breaststroke. At the turn, frustrated at a bad approach to the wall, I multi dolphin kicked off the wall in my confusion. No DQ observed...time was poor though. (hope this is not an egregious violation of an honor code) I had a really similar thing happen to me in Long Beach last week. I spaced out and started a 50 fly instead of the 50 ***. I realized my mistake whilst dolphin kicking like a champ... heh whoops... I finished the race though and there was no ref there to DQ me so I went and turned myself in. It was just so bad I couldn't let it stand. They told me they can't DQ me for something they didn't see (I had lane 4 and the guys to the right of me blocked my illegal maneuvers from view apparently), the upside is the time was fantastically awful anyways so I don't think it will have any impact on the rest of the breaststroke world at large :)

RE: DQ'd

Wild William — Fri, 10 Dec 2010 05:56:31 GMT

RE: DQ'd

Midas — Fri, 10 Dec 2010 05:47:49 GMT

My favorite DQ story comes from when I was a little kid--maybe 10 or 11 years old. It was the summer league and I was doing the 50m breaststroke in a dual meet. The grandfather of one of the other kids on my team was by the side of the pool yelling "Go Midas! Go!" (well, that's not my name but you get the point). Unfortunately, thanks to the water, what I heard was "No Midas! No!" Also, by around 15 meters into the race, I was WAY ahead of everybody else. So I thought it was a false start and he was trying to stop me. I stopped swimming and turned around to see everybody still racing so I kicked it back into gear. Of course, when I finished (still in first), the official came over and very gently explained to me that I had to be DQ'd for putting my feet down and breaking stroke. I was very embarrassed, and so was the guy doing the shouting (though I really appreciated that he was rooting for me so hard)!

RE: DQ'd

Former Member — Thu, 09 Dec 2010 12:08:36 GMT

This one gets even tougher. During my S&T training, they said you have to SEE the alternating feet. So even if I see the left foot higher one stroke and then the right foot higher on the next stroke, I can't call that unless I saw them alternate. Even though, by simple logic, they HAD to alternate for that to happen. On another topic, why aren't there any swim-specific smiley emoticons on this board. You lot seem to love your smileys. This is another one of those tough calls. My only DQ was in the 400 IM for the same thing. The official told me I did a "flutter kick during fly." It's true that my feet have a tendency to be out of plane on my dolphin kick, but this is allowed by the rules: So as long as both legs kick at the same time your kick isn't illegal, even if your feet aren't together.

RE: DQ'd

moodyrichardson — Thu, 09 Dec 2010 11:10:34 GMT

Well, wow!! I feel like a blundering idiot now. I got DQ'd for one of my events in my very first sanctioned meet. Granted, I've only been competing for the past year. I had such terrible anxiety on my 100 BK (my first event) that I slipped in an extra arm motion in my 3rd turn. The DQ was right on. I could clearly see it in the video. The good thing? I have never, ever done it again! I never swam age group, high school, or college, so I guess that I have years and years of rules to catch up with!

RE: DQ'd

Former Member — Thu, 09 Dec 2010 07:55:43 GMT

I think my only Masters DQ has been for uneven kick on 200m fly. By that point I wasn't trying to get ahead, simply finish! I was also warned about the same thing at a meet a couple of years earlier by a stroke judge who knew me before I could even swim. He gave me the benefit so I'd think about it and wouldn't risk being DQ'd on my 100. Always nice to have a friend on the poolside:)

RE: DQ'd

swimmerb212 — Thu, 09 Dec 2010 07:50:38 GMT

At my second ever meet in 2008, I had just learned the strokes, and had no idea what the rules were beyond that you had to swim the correct event and not start before the gun. I was swimming a LCM 100 ***, and felt real good about it. Everything was so smooth and fast, and as I got to the finish, I thought to myself, "wow, if I just reach my right hand out here, I'll be done so quickly!" I finished, looked at my time, which was a vast improvement over my time trials at practice and hopped out of the pool all proud of myself, and warmed down. I got back to our bleachers to towel off and my Coach hands me the pink slip and says, "here, this is from the ref." Now, I'm still oblivious to DQ's, so I think that I got some kind of prize or something for being so smart to have figured out that one-handed finishes are faster than those inefficient two-handed touches I saw everyone else doing. It was only when one of my teammates looked at me trying to decipher my Major Award and said, "bummer, lady," that I realized something was amiss. And that's when I learned that rule. Then I was sad. But I quickly recovered, and Coach lent me $5 to deck entry the 200 ***, which I now swim every year at Middlebury and I have dubbed it "the redemption swim."

RE: DQ'd

aquageek — Thu, 09 Dec 2010 07:30:07 GMT

RE: DQ'd

knelson — Thu, 09 Dec 2010 06:19:31 GMT

I think my only Masters DQ has been for uneven kick on 200m fly. This is another one of those tough calls. My only DQ was in the 400 IM for the same thing. The official told me I did a "flutter kick during fly." It's true that my feet have a tendency to be out of plane on my dolphin kick, but this is allowed by the rules: All up and down movements of the legs and feet must be simultaneous. The position of the legs or the feet need not be on the same level, but they shall not alternate in relation to each other So as long as both legs kick at the same time your kick isn't illegal, even if your feet aren't together.

RE: DQ'd

pwolf66 — Wed, 08 Dec 2010 08:58:12 GMT

My original question was if anyone had tried... With the majority of people in the stands and on the deck having access to cameras and video it may start coming up. ...but if I had indisputable proof that a swimmer touched with two hands and the ref blew the call then I owe it to that swimmer to protest the results. I would use a psychic if they could "prove" the result. With video I can do just that. At least with USA-S I can move up to a coach arbitration at the meet. Just because you view it a certain way does not mean a won't be allowed by a deck official or gets pushed to arbitration. Video review is not permitted. And the reasoning behind it not being permitted is due to equality. If swimmer A's race is videoed by someone, and that video is used to overturn a call but swimmer B's race is not then there is not an even enforcement for both swimmers. To be able to use any method of judging, there has to be the same level of judging for every swimmer. That's the reason why S&Ts are briefed to 'judge' empty lanes as well as the lanes that have swimmers to ensure that each lane in their jurisdiction receives as close to the same level of scrutiny as is possible. Yes, FINA is starting to use video at the elite level meets but that is because it is being used for every swimmer in every race. At the local level that is impossible due to cost, scale, time, etc.

RE: DQ'd

aquageek — Tue, 07 Dec 2010 12:59:05 GMT

One-handed touches can be hard to call sometimes I think, especially at the elite level when the swimmers pull that hand back so darn quickly. On this point, for the females, when I officiate and a female swimmer wears colored nail polish it makes my job about 10 X easier to see whether a two hand touch was done. If you are a swimmer who pushes it on the two hand touches, leave the polish off. I don't have an issue with consistency. My main problem is jurisdiction. I officiate quite a few 10/under sessions where I often have 3 or even 4 lane jurisdiction. When that happens you lose the ability to see everything and just the major/easily seen violations stick out, unless it is a long race and the swimmers get separation from each other.

RE: DQ'd

Waterdog7946 — Tue, 07 Dec 2010 11:56:40 GMT

My worst DQ came at Nats in ATL...My plane was delayed 2 hours in Chicago and when we landed we sat on the tarmac for another 2 hours. I didnt check in to my room till 1am. Needless to say I was a little brain frazzled from all this and had a horrible time sleeping. I woke up late, missed the 500free and didnt get time to get into the main competition pool for warmup...BIG MISTAKE!! I lined up for the 100free, got a good start..but the way the walls were and the double mark at the bottom threw me off a bit....I turned to early.....AND COMPLETLY MISSED THE WALL!!!!!!!! DQ!!!!! I was so embarassed and disappointed. I walked all the way back to my hotel (1.5miles) dragging my bag, looking like a kid whose puppy ran away :(....I went to hooters, had a beer, pulled it together for the next day and got my personel best in the 50free!!! :)

RE: DQ'd

Chris Stevenson — Tue, 07 Dec 2010 11:49:04 GMT

This past May at nationals I was DQ'ed in my 200 ***. It was only a LMSC record, but it was a personal best by over three seconds. I never swam the event shaved/tapered in college so I was very proud of my time. According to the judge I was doing butterfly kicks EVERY STROKE?! I asked twice because I was dumbfounded. I have never been DQ'ed in my *** in my swimming career. On top of that, I had swum the 100 ***, 200 im, and 50 *** (on a 200 medley relay) at the same meet and nothing was said in those races. I also had my race on videotape. My feet never broke the surface of the water. Presumably the call was on an upsweep motion of my legs following the normal *** kick (yet still minor enough it was all underwater), but I don't know since the judge didn't describe it as such. My second least favorite DQ was 2003 USA-S US Open. I made consolation finals and they hit me for a one handed turn in my 200 LCM Fly. I think those are petty sometimes, but I'm sure it was a good call. The lack of consistency is what gets me sometimes (more often applies to my son, but my 400 IM DQ falls in that category too). When I was a kid, it was not uncommon to get warnings: not a DQ but an alert that your edging into that territory. I always found that was quite helpful but I don't think they are done anymore (no time, I guess). Though as a masters swimmer I've had S&T judges tell me once or twice (unofficially) that I was pushing it about the 15m rule. One-handed touches can be hard to call sometimes I think, especially at the elite level when the swimmers pull that hand back so darn quickly.