freestyle vs kick-only times

RE: freestyle vs kick-only times

Former Member — Sat, 11 Sep 2010 16:05:37 GMT

I am curious if there are many like me who have: A) a relatively slow kicking speed B) a relatively slow pulling speed (i.e., with pull buoy) C) despite the above two shortcomings, a relatively decent swimming speed I am definately in this boat but with the key word being "relative" because I am nowhere near any elite level. My kicking speed is very slow yet I am slower with a pull buoy and have decided I have no use for them. I can swim a 50 SCY all out from a push in 30 seconds and a kick would take me 60 seconds. I'm once again pondering whether improving this kick time will actually give me any real benefit in swim times. I just started again today but will likely end up following my usual pattern of giving up as focus races approach due to lack of progress and soreness. I'm not sure what happened, but after a 25 year layoff and knee surgeries, circulation problems, etc. I just can't seem to hack it. I'm still not convinced that pushing the issue doesn't give me zero or even negative benefit. If anyone has any advice on whether you think I can get any kind of benefit from improving my kick times I sure would appreciate it. I wonder if since it is not an asset it is a waste of my limited training time. But I have no idea as I also think it could be my #1 area of potential to drop times.

RE: freestyle vs kick-only times

Former Member — Sat, 11 Sep 2010 15:21:46 GMT

Kicking is important. Right - but if the kick is not efficient it some times becomes a hinderence. Runners kick is a problem and has to be changed. My coach told us 55 years ago, if you run backwards this helps to make the change from a runners kick to an efficent kick. Yesterday I saw a triathlete training and this is what he was doing.

RE: freestyle vs kick-only times

Former Member — Sat, 11 Sep 2010 13:53:43 GMT

I think the question is whether kicking is the activity that will give you the greatest improvement, and the answer for that depends on the swimmer. I'm talking here about the 15-25% of a workout typically devoted to kicking. For an extreme example, an inexperienced swimmer will benefit far more from stroke development than from kicking, so should probably kick less than the standard amount. At the other end, I think, would be a person who swims 100 SCY in, say a minute but kicks it in two. That person probably has good technique already, so a kicking regimen would benefit them more than additional stroke technique. This person would probably benefit from kicking more than 25% of a workout. Of course, integrating the skill and strength into the stroke is important too. Not really based on experience but on common sense.

RE: freestyle vs kick-only times

philoswimmer — Sat, 11 Sep 2010 01:22:51 GMT

Of course, integrating the skill and strength into the stroke is important too. That's my problem. I'm a great kicker only when I'm just kicking.

RE: freestyle vs kick-only times

Former Member — Fri, 10 Sep 2010 12:41:57 GMT

I am curious if there are many like me who have: A) a relatively slow kicking speed B) a relatively slow pulling speed (i.e., with pull buoy) C) despite the above two shortcomings, a relatively decent swimming speed It makes me think that it's not just adding the pull and the kick together to get swimming speed, but some weird synergy where the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. Put me down as a weak kicker, strong puller. For a 100 SCY, from a push I'd be around 1:04 swim and 1:40 kick with a board for a 0.64 ratio. I've worked on my kick a fair amount and I'm trying to better integrate my kick into my stroke. What works best for me is doing a set of broken 200s as 100 kick followed immediately by 100 swim. I get a good sense of continuing my kick during the swim portion.

RE: freestyle vs kick-only times

Swimosaur — Fri, 10 Sep 2010 12:13:50 GMT

... It makes me think that it's not just adding the pull and the kick together to get swimming speed, but some weird synergy where the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. But what, I wonder, accounts for this? What is the Mystery Factor? Body roll? Some unintended anchoring effect whereby the legs allow the arms to gain greater purchase on the water? I don't think it's a mystery at all ... (my :2cents: follows) ... Ignoring the finer points, in swimming you use two systems of two levers: an anterior system (arms)consisting of two arms, coupled by the (relatively) rigid pectoral girdle, and a posterior system (legs) consisting of two legs, coupled by the pelvis. The two systems are themselves coupled by the axial skeleton and core muscles. Our coaches are constantly telling us to "engage your core!" in freestyle and backstroke -- they are saying. "coordinate the two systems!" But why? In the laterally asymmetric long axis strokes, legs serve two purposes -- yes, for propulsion (moreso in sprint events than in distance events), but even more importantly, for navigation. Acting as rudders, the legs allow you to keep your upper body in the correct orientation and moving in the correct direction. Core strength is important for transferring force from legs to arms, for both purposes. What is a mystery to me is why pulling sets, without kicking, are a virtue. When I try to pull only, I flounder hopelessly. I need legs to stay straight! :2cents:

RE: freestyle vs kick-only times

Former Member — Fri, 10 Sep 2010 12:05:44 GMT

My ratio is 0.55 for a 25 SCY and 0.60 for a 50 SCY. My kick is terrible.

RE: freestyle vs kick-only times

Former Member — Fri, 10 Sep 2010 06:59:17 GMT

The only kicking I do now is the hands locked behind the back. An old waterpolo drill. You hold your head up out of the water and kick several lengths, Hardest work you will ever do.

RE: freestyle vs kick-only times

Former Member — Fri, 10 Sep 2010 06:46:30 GMT

So many questions. With a board Without a board In a 25M pool In a 50M pool Dolphin kick for 15M in a 25M pool each length Dolphin kick for 15M in a 50M pool No dolphin kick Two arms extended in front in streamline One arm in front streamline the other arm sculls at the thigh when taking a breath These are just a few qestions there are many more. Great questions! You want to be as objective as possible, so know the variables specific to timing each effort and keep it consistent. I have my swimmers kick without a board, lock their elbows and lock their thumbs. Good luck!

RE: freestyle vs kick-only times

Former Member — Thu, 09 Sep 2010 16:06:00 GMT

I recently compared my fastest kick-only time (no snorkel or flippers) with my fastest freestyle time and it is almost exactly 2x slower. I read various places that the kick provides a much smaller portion of the total propulsion in freestyle, so this gap seems smaller than I would expect. Remember that a given kick intensity will provide less propulsion the faster you are moving. So having a kick time that is half of your swim time doesn't mean that half of the propulsion is coming from the kick. If you compare your pull time to your full stroke time you'll get a better indication of how much the kick is providing.

RE: freestyle vs kick-only times

Former Member — Thu, 09 Sep 2010 15:25:49 GMT

My 50 free from a push LCM is 29 seconds and my 50 kick on my back without a board is about 42 seconds.

RE: freestyle vs kick-only times

Former Member — Thu, 09 Sep 2010 15:20:57 GMT

So many questions. With a board Without a board In a 25M pool In a 50M pool Dolphin kick for 15M in a 25M pool each length Dolphin kick for 15M in a 50M pool No dolphin kick Two arms extended in front in streamline One arm in front streamline the other arm sculls at the thigh when taking a breath These are just a few qestions there are many more. geochuck, thanks for the response. I am primarily concerned with comparing the following: 1) 25M pool "fastest speed normal freestyle" (whatever that means to you) 2) 25M pool flutter kick, arms in front with no board. For the breathing you can do whatever you want, just don't use a snorkel. If you or someone else could give me these times to compare, that would be great.

RE: freestyle vs kick-only times

Former Member — Thu, 09 Sep 2010 15:17:49 GMT

To show what is possible... "...Recently, one such kicking savant from Michigan suggested I write about these kick sets. Former All-American and National Teamer, Chris DeJong, relished these sets and he spoke about the kickboard battles waged among his Wolverine teammates. "It got intense," he remembers. "Me, Vanderkaay, Vendt when he was with us in '08, we really got into it. The standard was breaking five minutes in a 400 kick - long course. We could do it, and we heard Ian Thorpe was one of the only other guys ever to break that barrier."" www.swimnetwork.com/.../Grab-Your-Kickboard.aspx Peter Vanderkaay has gone around 3:45 for 400 LCM. Kicking 400 LCM in 5:00 gives him a swim/kick ratio of 0.75.

RE: freestyle vs kick-only times

Former Member — Thu, 09 Sep 2010 15:07:48 GMT

Swimming is a combination of every thing you do. I prefer to call it technique. A great kick is not going to do it by its self. I quit doing kick sets when I was 17. I did most of my work outs at full stroke. I did heavy kicking sets in combination with swimming. What I mean is I kicked harder while swimming. I also did a lot of swimming with a reduced strength of kick. I did what they call arms only but did it with a very light flutter kick. When working on Butterfly I raced the club freestyle sprinters by doing 50's of dolphin kicking in a 25 yard pool. I used to do 50 yards of dolphin kicking with a dive in around 24 seconds. Just took a breath at the turn. I know 50 yards dolphin in 24 seconds may not be considered fast now. To get a faster freestyle every thing has to work together (synergy). Synergy - The interaction of two or more agents or forces so that their combined effect is greater than the sum of their individual.

RE: freestyle vs kick-only times

Former Member — Thu, 09 Sep 2010 14:56:30 GMT

I am one of the top 2-3 fastest guys on my masters team in the 50 free, but one of the absolute SLOWEST kickers. I mean, I go 22 low in the 50 free but I get lapped by by people twice my age when we kick.

RE: freestyle vs kick-only times

Former Member — Thu, 09 Sep 2010 14:54:27 GMT

RE: freestyle vs kick-only times

knelson — Thu, 09 Sep 2010 12:52:24 GMT

I am primarily concerned with comparing the following: 1) 25M pool "fastest speed normal freestyle" (whatever that means to you) 2) 25M pool flutter kick, arms in front with no board. For the breathing you can do whatever you want, just don't use a snorkel. Good kickers will probably only be a second or so slower kicking than swimming given this scenario.

RE: freestyle vs kick-only times

gdanner — Thu, 09 Sep 2010 12:12:16 GMT

I recently compared my fastest kick-only time (no snorkel or flippers) with my fastest freestyle time and it is almost exactly 2x slower. Please let me know your kick times and ratio to equivalent free style times so I can set some reasonable goals and figure out how much my kick is holding me back. Ratio wise, I'm probably around a .75. If you're talking a 50, 100, or 200 you need a solid 6 beat kick and .5 (2x slower) is definitely something to improve upon. However, I never developed the right rhythm to do a 6 beat kick throughout 400+ races. Distance events are much easier to go fast with just a 2 beat kick, if you are a strong puller. In which case the ratio is thrown right out the window. Good luck!

RE: freestyle vs kick-only times

jim thornton — Thu, 09 Sep 2010 10:46:39 GMT

I am curious if there are many like me who have: A) a relatively slow kicking speed B) a relatively slow pulling speed (i.e., with pull buoy) C) despite the above two shortcomings, a relatively decent swimming speed It makes me think that it's not just adding the pull and the kick together to get swimming speed, but some weird synergy where the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. But what, I wonder, accounts for this? What is the Mystery Factor? Body roll? Some unintended anchoring effect whereby the legs allow the arms to gain greater purchase on the water?

RE: freestyle vs kick-only times

Former Member — Thu, 09 Sep 2010 07:13:22 GMT

around .75 for me too.

RE: freestyle vs kick-only times

Speedo — Thu, 09 Sep 2010 05:24:08 GMT

Best times last year from a push in practice: 100 free - 100 flutter kick w/ board ratio for me is 0.67 200 free - 200 flutter kick w/board ratio for me is 0.68 Ande's fellas range from 0.77 to 0.81- sounds like I need a better kick.

RE: freestyle vs kick-only times

ande — Thu, 09 Sep 2010 03:47:10 GMT

here's links to my speed improvement programs My times were SCY 20.4 50 fr 28.0 50 k from a push in a brief Ian Crocker 50 scy 19.0 24.5 shaun jordan 50 scy 19.1 23.3 board with a dive, brief Garrett Weber Gale 50 LCM kicked in 27.2 & swam 21.4 in 50 LCM in a LZR, 22 low in jammer