Pacific Masters poll concerning tech suits

RE: Pacific Masters poll concerning tech suits

Former Member — Thu, 02 Sep 2010 16:56:25 GMT

I am afraid it happens to be a Never Ending Story.

RE: Pacific Masters poll concerning tech suits

Former Member — Thu, 02 Sep 2010 16:44:17 GMT

Doggunnit, is anyone ever going to figure out a way to put a lid on this can of worms??? :worms: By the way, I guess someone noticed the metaphore I often cite (on the subject of the rules for tech suits) and provided me with a custom Smilie!!! D2

RE: Pacific Masters poll concerning tech suits

Former Member — Thu, 02 Sep 2010 16:29:21 GMT

My :2cents:: I loved the tech suits, especially the B70, which was relatively good value for money, since I got more than a handful of swims out of it. I can understand the A/G parents do not want to spend $500+ on a suit that will last only a few swims. But that is a manufacturing/durability issue; if the suits could last dozens of swims or multiple seasons, perhaps that issue would be moot. What I find really offensive is Speedo charging $375 for a fabric suit (women's LZR Elite) that will probably stretch out or rip after a few races. What's a bigger rip-off, or perversion of the sport's economics: a rubber B70 good for 30+ swims at $300, or a textile LZR Elite good for 3-6 swims at $375? :bitching: For the men it may be different: perhaps a $100 TYR Tracer Light jammer is more or less equivalent to a $260 LZR Elite jammer. With less coverage, fit is probably more important than fabric or compression. My prediction: tech suits (textile or not) will be back after 2012. Men will be allowed the same coverage as women (shoulders to knees). You heard it here first. And, while FINA sucks (as do most national sports governing bodies), it only makes sense for USMS and USAS to follow their guidelines - no need to be even weirder than we are already (swimming yards, etc). In conclusion, racing is racing - be it in tech suits, kneeskins, jammers, briefs or birthday suits. YMMV.

RE: Pacific Masters poll concerning tech suits

Former Member — Thu, 02 Sep 2010 14:27:06 GMT

Fort where do you stand??? Do you want to use your banned Tech suit or are you against their use? By your Avatar It looks like your could care less.

RE: Pacific Masters poll concerning tech suits

Former Member — Thu, 02 Sep 2010 14:11:53 GMT

You are right lots of decision makers, make bad decisions whether elected or not. Apples and Tire Irons. Those folks are in positions (elected, appointed, whatever) where they are responsible for making decisions in the best interest of the group or organization they represent. Doesn't always happen that way.

RE: Pacific Masters poll concerning tech suits

Former Member — Thu, 02 Sep 2010 13:41:35 GMT

RE: Pacific Masters poll concerning tech suits

Former Member — Thu, 02 Sep 2010 12:58:13 GMT

Because I have not competed since 1998 and that was one time after a 25 year layoff I probably do not deserve to have an opinion.

RE: Pacific Masters poll concerning tech suits

Former Member — Thu, 02 Sep 2010 12:51:21 GMT

*** is not really a stroke anyway That answers a lot about you.

RE: Pacific Masters poll concerning tech suits

orca1946 — Thu, 02 Sep 2010 12:41:05 GMT

I like them if I can get a sponsor tp pay for them!!!:D

RE: Pacific Masters poll concerning tech suits

Former Member — Thu, 02 Sep 2010 12:23:40 GMT

Does it mean the only people who have an opinion must be elite swimmers??

RE: Pacific Masters poll concerning tech suits

Former Member — Thu, 02 Sep 2010 12:11:37 GMT

It is almost the same as a poll of drug users only being allowed to voice their opinion. Shall we allow steroids to be used at the SC championships.

RE: Pacific Masters poll concerning tech suits

Chris Stevenson — Thu, 02 Sep 2010 11:58:08 GMT

1312 respondents is quite impressive but I wonder what is the % of those who have actually competed in a pool meet in the last 2 years? No, the email was received by 1312, opened by about 500 and 184 actually took the survey. It is probably a pretty fair bet that a pretty large fraction of the 300+ who didn't elected not to take the survey didn't have a strong opinion on the matter. The ones who didn't even open it may also not care, but there are other issues too (eg, away on vacation, overeager spam filter). It is all in the report, but: almost half of the respondents self-identified as "regular competitors" and another 29% identified themselves as (essentially) "wannabes." The rate of disapproval of the suits remained about the same among all groups, though the rate of approval ticked up a little for the regular and wannabe competitors. (It still wasn't close.) Any poll sent to a group on a matter that directly affects a small sub-set of that group is inherently flawed from the start. Not to :dedhorse: but the 'techsuit issue' is actually a three-sided argument. 1 - No tech 2 - Textile only tech 3 - Non-textile tech But a more than significant percentage of non-tech folks like to lump 2 and 3 together, while some pro-tech folks such as myself are dead-set against #3. Inherently flawed from your viewpoint. I absolutely think that there should be an effort to find out if the competitors have a different view than the non-competitors; that's why we had a question to that effect in the VA survey. We were able to tease out the data by category. But I am very strongly against the idea that only those who competed in a championship meet (LMSC, zone, national) have a voice worth listening to. "Inherently flawed" in my view is only sending the poll to one group of people and say it is because you want to listen to "the views of the swimmers." I guess those who don't go to championship meets aren't real swimmers? About your second point about textile vs non-textile suits: it may be an important distinction for some, but I don't think for most. The vast majority of the points made in the comments of the "disapprovers" were true whether or not the suits was textile: for example, for the "purists" it isn't the DEGREE of the enhancement, it is that it happens at all. Other people wanted consistency between courses, or between USMS and FINA. It's like having a poll of only backstrokers being allowed to voice their opinion: shall we remove the 15m restriction on underwater SDKs off the start? Let's do THAT poll!!!

RE: Pacific Masters poll concerning tech suits

knelson — Thu, 02 Sep 2010 11:40:41 GMT

For me it boils down to "should USMS follow FINA rules regarding suits for all courses, or should we make our own rules for SCY competition?" I'm not opposed to FINA reevaluating the suit rules, but I'm 100% opposed to USMS going rogue.

RE: Pacific Masters poll concerning tech suits

pwolf66 — Thu, 02 Sep 2010 11:11:30 GMT

I think you read that wrong. The poll was sent to 1312 LMSC members. 184 responded. Whoops. Then I suspect that represents a fairly significant % of folk that compete. But to return to an earlier post. My biggest issue with this whole debate/polling thing is that it's doing this: 1 - No Tech suits 2 - Tech suits The rediculous suit wars of 2008/2009 left a bad taste im my mouth and I _like_ the idea of full body suits. So I can only imagine how folks would react to that choice. Instead of: 1- No tech suits 2- Textile only tech suits (ala 2007 and earlier) 3 - Modern tech suits But that's just me.

RE: Pacific Masters poll concerning tech suits

Former Member — Thu, 02 Sep 2010 10:50:42 GMT

Doggunnit, is anyone ever going to figure out a way to put a lid on this can of worms??? :worms: By keeping the tech suit issue around, the forums get to keep you around. With the tech suit debate, you would be left with very little to add to the forums. Especially if the mag isn't on everyone's doorstep first thing in the morning on Sept 1. Whoops...:worms::waiting: (How did I ever miss the "waiting" smiley before now? It MUST have been invented for the "Where's my SWIMMER?" threads that start every 2 months.) Well, if Timmy would be nicer to his mailman, he might get his copy of Swimmer when everyone else in his zip code does. :D

RE: Pacific Masters poll concerning tech suits

knelson — Thu, 02 Sep 2010 10:43:03 GMT

1312 respondents is quite impressive but I wonder what is the % of those who have actually competed in a pool meet in the last 2 years? I think you read that wrong. The poll was sent to 1312 LMSC members. 184 responded.

RE: Pacific Masters poll concerning tech suits

The Fortress — Thu, 02 Sep 2010 10:31:41 GMT

Fort where do you stand??? Do you want to use your banned Tech suit or are you against their use? By your Avatar It looks like your could care less. I've always been pro suit, and would vote accordingly. But I've over it and have competed without them without whining. I will say not having a tech suit has and will effect my choice of events in meets.

RE: Pacific Masters poll concerning tech suits

The Fortress — Thu, 02 Sep 2010 10:24:10 GMT

It will be interesting to see what the results of this survey--and any other survey--are considering the respondents in Virginia voted to continue the ban on tech suits for SCY by a margin of five to one. It's hard to imagine that this is really a regional issue, but I guess until we see the results of other surveys, who knows? Maybe there was a strong anti-suit cabal voting in Virginia. It's not "Virginia." It's southern Virginia. If you live here, northern and southern Virginia are two different worlds. :bolt: We here in the north are part of Potomac Valley.

RE: Pacific Masters poll concerning tech suits

pwolf66 — Thu, 02 Sep 2010 10:23:31 GMT

It will be interesting to see what the results of this survey--and any other survey--are considering the respondents in Virginia voted to continue the ban on tech suits for SCY by a margin of five to one. It's hard to imagine that this is really a regional issue, but I guess until we see the results of other surveys, who knows? Maybe there was a strong anti-suit cabal voting in Virginia. 1312 respondents is quite impressive but I wonder what is the % of those who have actually competed in a pool meet in the last 2 years?

RE: Pacific Masters poll concerning tech suits

knelson — Thu, 02 Sep 2010 10:13:10 GMT

RE: Pacific Masters poll concerning tech suits

pwolf66 — Thu, 02 Sep 2010 10:05:33 GMT

FINA makes decisions for everyone. The decision makers certainly do not Participate (compete). The CASA makes decisions and do not participate. Most organizations are run by people who do not compete. Apples and Tire Irons. Those folks are in positions (elected, appointed, whatever) where they are responsible for making decisions in the best interest of the group or organization they represent. Doesn't always happen that way.

RE: Pacific Masters poll concerning tech suits

pwolf66 — Thu, 02 Sep 2010 09:34:38 GMT

Because I have not competed since 1998 and that was one time after a 25 year layoff I probably do not deserve to have an opinion. Anyone deserves to have an opinion but my concern is opinions from folks who do not participate in meets, have no plans to participate in meets and will never participate in meets are being used be used as part of decision making process that affects those who do compete.

RE: Pacific Masters poll concerning tech suits

pwolf66 — Thu, 02 Sep 2010 08:53:57 GMT

Paul - you either missed the point Geochuck was trying to make or have chosen to ignore it with a tired old argument. And I know you're too smart to have missed the point. Let's use a different analogy. It's like having a poll of only backstrokers being allowed to voice their opinion: shall we remove the 15m restriction on underwater SDKs off the start? Or better yet, let's ask all non-breastrokers how they feel about eliminating the breastroke leg of the IM! :bump: (I'm just having a little fun with you Paul :bighug:) Good point, it's why I deleted my OP. It seems to be all for one and one for all within USMS, so I had originally decided to not go there but.... Any poll sent to a group on a matter that directly affects a small sub-set of that group is inherently flawed from the start. Not to :dedhorse: but the 'techsuit issue' is actually a three-sided argument. 1 - No tech 2 - Textile only tech 3 - Non-textile tech But a more than significant percentage of non-tech folks like to lump 2 and 3 together, while some pro-tech folks such as myself are dead-set against #3.

RE: Pacific Masters poll concerning tech suits

aquageek — Thu, 02 Sep 2010 08:47:39 GMT

Or better yet, let's ask all non-breastrokers how they feel about eliminating the breastroke leg of the IM! When is this poll coming out? Has it been raised as an option for the convention? I'm in favor, *** is not really a stroke anyway, more of a swimming curiosity.

RE: Pacific Masters poll concerning tech suits

jroddin — Thu, 02 Sep 2010 08:43:43 GMT

Hmm, comparing something that is perfectly legal in the United States (swimwear) with something that is completely illegal (without a medical prescription). Paul - you either missed the point Geochuck was trying to make or have chosen to ignore it with a tired old argument. And I know you're too smart to have missed the point. Let's use a different analogy. It's like having a poll of only backstrokers being allowed to voice their opinion: shall we remove the 15m restriction on underwater SDKs off the start? Or better yet, let's ask all non-breastrokers how they feel about eliminating the breastroke leg of the IM! :bump: (I'm just having a little fun with you Paul :bighug:)