2 beat kick and timing

RE: 2 beat kick and timing

Former Member — Wed, 08 Sep 2010 15:26:28 GMT

Glad if it was any help. I was using my shoulder to initiate roll... hard to break out of it. May I recommend you a drill? Let's give a name... core-drive?? ..:-P.. this is my favorite drill. Start swim on your side... balanced with both hands on your sides, head in breathing position. Now rotate head face down; you can continue flutter kicking if your balance is lost. When u r ready, Wind up ur abs to lift lower leg up & back as u can, that is whichever leg lower in the water on ur side Now simultaneously unwind, kick, & let you body rotate 180 degrees to be swimming on other side. Breathe. Repeat back to other side. Do very very slowly first & feel. Concentrate on feeling a drive fwd from the core muscles... when ur abs rotate & kick follows. When you are already good at this core-drive... I would suggest single arm free concentrating on channeling this core-drive energy. Use single arm free with both breathing sides. Tips to do it really well.. concentrate on a holding lower back straight. Our lower back tend to naturally arch backward. Try stand by the pool with you back on the wall... try get lower back touch wall. When your lower back is really straight, u'll feel a better drive from the core. Regards. Thanks - I've done these drills or slight variations of them before. However, I don't think I was focusing on the kick timing or core when doing them. For example, the first one above I've done with a swimming snorkel. I was focused on rotating my shoulders back and forth and eliminating the dead spots. (This was when I was swimming flatter). So, I'll try that one again focusing on core and timing. Similarly with one-arm drills. I love one arm but my focus when I do one-arm drills seems to be in isolating the catch with each arm. So, again, I can try again with a different focus. Thanks!

RE: 2 beat kick and timing

Former Member — Tue, 07 Sep 2010 15:50:31 GMT

Hi there.. new here but tot this is interesting topic to share my 2cents. I'm with RadSwim... kick should be initiated to drive body roll & opposite hand into water. Look at Benko for example.. during long distance 2 beat. If u using same legs & hands, I think u may be initiating roll with shoulders rather than core muscles. This is how i visualize the kick variations.. hope it is relevant. Sorry if I am wrong. A) 2 Beat :- both kick is actually a "rotate" kick. R-pause-R. Core muscles wind up setting up lower leg (say u r swimming right side, its ur right leg). Same time recovery arm reach its peak ready to spear into the water. I am using a bent arm. Kick begins from abs muscles release... its like a quick snap that spears hands into water. Feeling of "drive" fwd from the leg beat down. Leg is j position back to stream line as u rotate, & relax into catch from the "drive". There is no upbeat feeling like u have in 4 or 6 beat In my opinion, body position is more difficult to maintain through out stroke... less swim rotation,.. legs easily sink on long pause cuz I use front quadrant. Need a catch pure vertical high elbow b4 push & careful up sweep not pushing u down. Not comfortable for me, but good drill I notice there are also variation where a cross over instead of a pause is used. R-cross-R. B) 4 beat : k-R-pause-k-R My timing & feel is quite the same to the 2 beat... if u r good at 2 beat, getting to 4 is very natural. Difference is in the setup, ur setup as u wind abs muscles, there is actually a downbeat kick. Say u swim on ur right... ur left leg down beat, upbeat on right. Timing is similar... u use an additional kick when u setup big rotate kick. A setup kick > a rotate drive kick > pause / glide > back to setup kick again. Compare to the 2-beat, this is easier to "drive" fwd, more roll, much more natural streamline, cleaner catch, better stroke per length, & d pause / cross over phase isn't as long. Also I use it for drills only, not my actual swim. C) 6 beat : k-R-K-k-R-K I purposely trained myself to use a 6-beat.. took many years but now its natural with my front quad. Best stroke per length & good for my tennis shoulder. The only difference with the 4 beat is that instead of pause, u add a kick j about d upsweep (i mark above as capital "K") Then come the setup kick again during hand recovery, & then the big "R" kick that spear hand into water (other hand j finish catch & ready for insweep) Many variations to 6 beat kick.. mine time is for front quad. I tried kayak style on 6 beat... too tiring & not getting enough roll, amazes me how Popov did it so smooth & relax. j my 2 cents..:) Thank you. I think your opinion that I'm probably rotating with my shoulders is accurate. I really had to slow things down but for the first time today I actually used the kick (two-beat) to rotate my opposite hip down. It is awkward but at least I know what I'm supposed to do. I noticed that my timing is also incorrect on the 6 beat kick. So, back to the drawing board on kick timing. I do have a decent base now and my kick has some power to it - so hopefully working out the timing won't take me too long.

RE: 2 beat kick and timing

Former Member — Tue, 07 Sep 2010 15:19:17 GMT

RE: 2 beat kick and timing

Former Member — Tue, 07 Sep 2010 06:47:00 GMT

I never understood the 4 beat. So, You are alternating which foot you are starting each stroke with? So, - right foot / left foot with right hand. then - Right foot / left foot with left hand. etc. If that is the case then is it really that bad that I'm using the right foot with the right hand on a two-beat? Hi there.. new here but tot this is interesting topic to share my 2cents. I'm with RadSwim... kick should be initiated to drive body roll & opposite hand into water. Look at Benko for example.. during long distance 2 beat. If u using same legs & hands, I think u may be initiating roll with shoulders rather than core muscles. This is how i visualize the kick variations.. hope it is relevant. Sorry if I am wrong. A) 2 Beat :- both kick is actually a "rotate" kick. R-pause-R. Core muscles wind up setting up lower leg (say u r swimming right side, its ur right leg). Same time recovery arm reach its peak ready to spear into the water. I am using a bent arm. Kick begins from abs muscles release... its like a quick snap that spears hands into water. Feeling of "drive" fwd from the leg beat down. Leg is j position back to stream line as u rotate, & relax into catch from the "drive". There is no upbeat feeling like u have in 4 or 6 beat In my opinion, body position is more difficult to maintain through out stroke... less swim rotation,.. legs easily sink on long pause cuz I use front quadrant. Need a catch pure vertical high elbow b4 push & careful up sweep not pushing u down. Not comfortable for me, but good drill I notice there are also variation where a cross over instead of a pause is used. R-cross-R. B) 4 beat : k-R-pause-k-R My timing & feel is quite the same to the 2 beat... if u r good at 2 beat, getting to 4 is very natural. Difference is in the setup, ur setup as u wind abs muscles, there is actually a downbeat kick. Say u swim on ur right... ur left leg down beat, upbeat on right. Timing is similar... u use an additional kick when u setup big rotate kick. A setup kick > a rotate drive kick > pause / glide > back to setup kick again. Compare to the 2-beat, this is easier to "drive" fwd, more roll, much more natural streamline, cleaner catch, better stroke per length, & d pause / cross over phase isn't as long. Also I use it for drills only, not my actual swim. C) 6 beat : k-R-K-k-R-K I purposely trained myself to use a 6-beat.. took many years but now its natural with my front quad. Best stroke per length & good for my tennis shoulder. The only difference with the 4 beat is that instead of pause, u add a kick j about d upsweep (i mark above as capital "K") Then come the setup kick again during hand recovery, & then the big "R" kick that spear hand into water (other hand j finish catch & ready for insweep) Many variations to 6 beat kick.. mine time is for front quad. I tried kayak style on 6 beat... too tiring & not getting enough roll, amazes me how Popov did it so smooth & relax. j my 2 cents..:)

RE: 2 beat kick and timing

Former Member — Thu, 02 Sep 2010 16:11:06 GMT

I kick down and then reach out with the same side. Not the way most people do it. Kick down with the right leg as you roll left hip down and thrust your left arm forward. 2-beat works for me, but I swim of fitness, not racing.

RE: 2 beat kick and timing

orca1946 — Wed, 01 Sep 2010 11:34:36 GMT

Try the 4 beat kick as 1-2 at the start & finish of the rt hand then 3-4 at the start & finish of the left hand for timing.

RE: 2 beat kick and timing

Former Member — Wed, 01 Sep 2010 08:06:29 GMT

I used a subdued 6 beat kick, also a very subdued kick in salt water for distance swimming. I was used to the rythme of six beat as a sprinter, had to modify for distance. The 2 beat to me is a non starter.

RE: 2 beat kick and timing

Former Member — Wed, 01 Sep 2010 07:30:33 GMT

Try the 4 beat kick as 1-2 at the start & finish of the rt hand then 3-4 at the start & finish of the left hand for timing. I never understood the 4 beat. So, You are alternating which foot you are starting each stroke with? So, - right foot / left foot with right hand. then - Right foot / left foot with left hand. etc. If that is the case then is it really that bad that I'm using the right foot with the right hand on a two-beat?

RE: 2 beat kick and timing

Former Member — Tue, 31 Aug 2010 10:28:18 GMT

I do triathlons too, and I don't use a 2-beat kick. I find that a 4 beat kick or even a subdued 6 beat work best when I don't want to expend too much leg energy but still keep a kick going for balance. My 4 beat is the same as a 6-beat, but with the 2nd and 3rd kicks removed (ONE ... ... FOUR five six). It's effectively a two-beat but it preserves the timing of the 6 beat. I think that's how Hackett does it.

RE: 2 beat kick and timing

Former Member — Tue, 31 Aug 2010 09:51:35 GMT

No expert, so take with a pinch of salt, but I think the idea is that if you kick with (say) the right leg the equal and opposite force the water exerts on you will help rotate you towards the left side. I think the 2-beat kick is in some ways harder to do well than the 6-beat.

RE: 2 beat kick and timing

orca1946 — Tue, 31 Aug 2010 06:09:10 GMT

IMHO a 4 beat kick will be easier to time