IM Back to *** Turn

RE: IM Back to *** Turn

gdanner — Thu, 09 Sep 2010 09:14:58 GMT

Maybe more in line with what the original poster was looking for: Erik Vendt photo demonstration of Old-School Transition Turn (posted here in 2008, I originally saw this in the May 2005 issue of Swimming World Magazine). This is the type of turn I used throughout college and up until now.

RE: IM Back to *** Turn

That Guy — Thu, 02 Sep 2010 01:40:05 GMT

YouTube- Back - *** Transition Turn Good job! :applaud:

RE: IM Back to *** Turn

Former Member — Wed, 01 Sep 2010 14:13:53 GMT

Pause his turn at 12 seconds and look at his hip position. You'll see that he is DQ'd.

RE: IM Back to *** Turn

pwolf66 — Wed, 01 Sep 2010 12:08:21 GMT

Pause his turn at 12 seconds and look at his hip position. You'll see that he is DQ'd. Might be a good point except that judging of body position is not done at the hips, it is done at the shoulders.

RE: IM Back to *** Turn

gdanner — Wed, 01 Sep 2010 08:34:07 GMT

So I tried these turns a bunch of times last week, based on what Shanteau does. My coaches said it looked legal, but I wanted to tape it as well. Got it on tape today: YouTube- Back - *** Transition Turn Credit to this thread for getting me motivated to practice something new :chug: As others indicated, I'm concerned about getting dq'ed even if it is legal. Heck, I got dq'ed at scy nationals in my 2 *** for doing the same *** I've been doing my entire life lol.

RE: IM Back to *** Turn

Former Member — Tue, 31 Aug 2010 13:22:33 GMT

Thanks for the info TG. Cause really that is the core of the problem with this turn. You're no longer on your back when you touch the wall, but rather on your side. Almost perpendicular to the surface. So it's legal I know, but easy to get dqed and filing a protest, well, that ain't cool. YouTube- Adam Mania's Back to *** turn

RE: IM Back to *** Turn

That Guy — Tue, 31 Aug 2010 11:46:18 GMT

Tried it in the pool today - what a mess I was! All twisted to the side! Guess I need to work on it more. If I try the Shanteau/Mania style turn, I usually end up like that too. The flip-over turn has no twisting at all, so I can do it pretty consistently.

RE: IM Back to *** Turn

orca1946 — Tue, 31 Aug 2010 06:13:26 GMT

Tried it in the pool today - what a mess I was! All twisted to the side! Guess I need to work on it more.

RE: IM Back to *** Turn

Former Member — Sat, 28 Aug 2010 16:18:03 GMT

Among the two clips provided by Ande, the flip turn has to be my first pick. Not that much because of its superior efficiency over Phelps', but mainly because I certainly don't trust our officials here. Phelps' version implies to reach an almost perfect vertical position whilst touching the wall. I don't think our officials are ready to issue a fair judgment over this. Or at least, I would try it during non important races first too inquire about their education level.

RE: IM Back to *** Turn

That Guy — Sat, 28 Aug 2010 08:11:43 GMT

Here's the relevant bits from www.usms.org/.../part1.pdf: Backstroke to breaststroke—The swimmer must touch the wall while on the back. Once a legal touch has been made, the swimmer may turn in any manner, but the shoulders must be at or past the vertical toward the *** when the swimmer leaves the wall and the prescribed breaststroke form must be attained prior to the first arm stroke. 102.16.1 The official results of any protested race shall not be announced, the affected awards shall not be given and points scored shall not be allocated until the protest is resolved or is withdrawn in writing. 102.16.2 Protests affecting the eligibility of any swimmer to compete or to represent an organization in any race shall be made in writing to the meet director or referee before the race is held, and if the meet committee deems it advisable, the swimmer may compete under protest and it shall be so announced before the race. The meet committee shall immediately refer such protest to the LMSC officers (local meets) or championship meet protest committee (national championship meets; see article 104.5.9B) having jurisdiction for adjudication at the earliest possible time. 102.16.3 Protests against judgment decisions of starters and stroke, turn and relay takeoff judges can only be considered by the referee, and the referee’s decision shall be final. 102.16.4 Protests concerning interpretation of the rules in Part 1: Swimming Rules and the Glossary shall be submitted in writing (on paper or in an electronic file), within 10 days to the USMS Rules Committee chair, who shall issue a decision in writing (on paper or in an electronic file) within five days of the date of receipt of such protest, unless the USMS Rules Committee chair notifies the parties that the issue must come before the entire committee. The ruling shall be final and binding on all parties. 102.16.5 Any other protest arising from the competition itself shall be made within 30 minutes after the race in which the alleged infraction took place. If the protest is not resolved immediately, the protester shall at that time file a written protest with the chair of the LMSC or the chair’s representative having jurisdiction over the event. If the LMSC does not satisfactorily resolve the protest within 10 days, the protester may appeal in writing to the USMS Rules Committee chair within the next five days for final adjudication, whose decision shall then be binding on all parties.

RE: IM Back to *** Turn

knelson — Sat, 28 Aug 2010 02:22:45 GMT

YES you may but sometimes there's no wall to grab I'm with Ande here. If you're at a meet with the FINA pads that extend out of the water you will not be able to grab the wall. It's better to just learn to do the turn without grabbing.

RE: IM Back to *** Turn

That Guy — Sat, 28 Aug 2010 01:56:42 GMT

Not that much because of its superior efficiency over Phelps', but mainly because I certainly don't trust our officials here. Phelps' version implies to reach an almost perfect vertical position whilst touching the wall. I don't think our officials are ready to issue a fair judgment over this. Or at least, I would try it during non important races first too inquire about their education level. This is an excellent point. I feel like I've got good command of the flip-over turn, enough so that I'm going to try it in competition, but in the back of my mind I've been wondering if I'm going to find myself arguing with an official after each IM race. I think it was Jeff Commings who mentioned a while back that he has successfully appealed some DQ's. I need to brush up on the rule book so I understand what's involved in appealing a DQ, in case I ever need to.

RE: IM Back to *** Turn

Former Member — Fri, 27 Aug 2010 13:11:13 GMT

Grabbing the wall is fine. As for better turn execution, I've been imitating this for the last few weeks: YouTube- turn backstroke-breaststroke / virata dorso-rana I wouldn't recommend this turn. More often than not you will end up too far from the wall to get a decent push-off.

RE: IM Back to *** Turn

That Guy — Fri, 27 Aug 2010 12:39:18 GMT

Grabbing the wall is fine. As for better turn execution, I've been imitating this for the last few weeks: YouTube- turn backstroke-breaststroke / virata dorso-rana

RE: IM Back to *** Turn

That Guy — Fri, 27 Aug 2010 11:30:13 GMT

Do you guys always turn off the same arm? or do you decide at the flags? My backstroke is not good enough to be predictable, so I have a hard time touching with my good arm every time. I can turn with the other arm, just not as fast. One nice thing about flipping straight over is that (for me at least) it doesn't matter which hand touches the wall.

RE: IM Back to *** Turn

Jimbosback — Fri, 27 Aug 2010 10:50:17 GMT

YES you may but sometimes there's no wall to grab I do a flip over turn and it's the fastest for me I touch the wall underwater on my back then flip my legs straight over there's no question that I touch the wall on my back YouTube- 2010 Masters SCY Nats 200 IM Men 45 to 49 1:58.20 NR YouTube- MICHAEL PHELPS back/*** turn Do you guys always turn off the same arm? or do you decide at the flags? My backstroke is not good enough to be predictable, so I have a hard time touching with my good arm every time. I can turn with the other arm, just not as fast.

RE: IM Back to *** Turn

DPC — Fri, 27 Aug 2010 10:21:07 GMT

I have done a couple hundred of these turns in the last few weeks and have only had that happen a few times, when I tried to anticipate the touch and started turning too early. Provided that I touch the wall before I start turning, I come out fine. Perhaps it helps that I have T-Rex arms. I never knew there was an upside until now! :banana: This turn has worked for me and I just started doing them recently. I get the same missed pushoff when I rush, or I go a little too deep when I don't flip fast enough, but all in all its been quite a nice transition versus the grab turn, and I fell I get a better pull out and no loss of air with this new turn.

RE: IM Back to *** Turn

Elaine Krugman — Fri, 27 Aug 2010 09:58:34 GMT

YouTube- 2010 Masters SCY Nats 200 IM Men 45 to 49 1:58.20 NR Gee, Ande, I wonder who shot that video of you at Nats... And, who the heck was that obnoxious voice :cheerleader: "Goooo Ande!!!" ??? :blush:

RE: IM Back to *** Turn

That Guy — Fri, 27 Aug 2010 09:55:06 GMT

I wouldn't recommend this turn. More often than not you will end up too far from the wall to get a decent push-off. I have done a couple hundred of these turns in the last few weeks and have only had that happen a few times, when I tried to anticipate the touch and started turning too early. Provided that I touch the wall before I start turning, I come out fine. Perhaps it helps that I have T-Rex arms. I never knew there was an upside until now! :banana:

RE: IM Back to *** Turn

gdanner — Fri, 27 Aug 2010 09:02:03 GMT

Grabbing the wall is fine. As for better turn execution, I've been imitating this for the last few weeks: YouTube- turn backstroke-breaststroke / virata dorso-rana This style is slightly different, entering the wall sideways seems to be the most popular: YouTube- Eric Shanteau Back - *** Transition Turn I plan on learning these newer styles, for now I'm still doing the old bucket turns. It takes a lot of practice to make it efficient regardless of which arm you're coming in with.

RE: IM Back to *** Turn

ande — Fri, 27 Aug 2010 07:04:49 GMT

YES you may but sometimes there's no wall to grab I do a flip over turn and it's the fastest for me I touch the wall underwater on my back then flip my legs straight over there's no question that I touch the wall on my back YouTube- 2010 Masters SCY Nats 200 IM Men 45 to 49 1:58.20 NR YouTube- MICHAEL PHELPS back/*** turn Regarding the back to *** turn in the IM, is it legal to grab the wall or top of the gutter when turning? I find that grabbing the wall helps in pulling the legs into the wall in preparation for pushing off. I read the rules on the backstroke and IM and did not see anything prohibiting this, but want to make sure before developing a habit. Also, any advice on a better way of making the turn is welcomed.

RE: IM Back to *** Turn

pwolf66 — Fri, 27 Aug 2010 06:47:49 GMT

While it's legal, it's much slower than doing a normal touch and turn. Patrick: You may think that you are getting a better push but actually you are working harder and getting less as grabbing the wall and collapsing towards it brings your legs much closer to the wall than desired and creates a much less than optimal knee angle at the start of your leg push. You want the inside angle at your knee to be slightly less than 90 degrees as this maximizes the power and speed of the push. An angle smaller than about 70 degrees has more power but is slow and an angle greater than 110 degrees has speed but little power.

RE: IM Back to *** Turn

Patrick W. Brundage — Fri, 27 Aug 2010 02:16:56 GMT

Um, aren't you swimming backstroke into the turn??????? :angel:Yeah, but, with my breaststroke, I really need to minimize the time I'm swimming on top of the water and maximize my underwater pullout; I need all the air I can get.

RE: IM Back to *** Turn

pwolf66 — Fri, 27 Aug 2010 01:59:58 GMT

Yeah, I know you're right. I just want the extra AIR! Um, aren't you swimming backstroke into the turn??????? :angel:

RE: IM Back to *** Turn

Patrick W. Brundage — Fri, 27 Aug 2010 01:21:16 GMT