What is the USMS Official rule for breastroke pullout?

RE: What is the USMS Official rule for breastroke pullout?

Former Member — Fri, 27 Aug 2010 16:07:33 GMT

Nice point. The rules say 'the swimmer MAY take a single downward dolphin kick'. Doesn't say has to, say it's at the swimmers discretion. Further evidence that FINA really pooched-the-screw. Yes, I should have said the swimmer may make at most one movement resembling a dolphin kick, including any "natural undulation" during the pull down. I can't believe that I'm defending FINA but it really is rather difficult to find precise wording. It would be an interesting exercise to go through the rules and find faulty rules and try and come up with a bulletproof wording. I tried to do that for the butterfly rule saying you must perform the arm action "throughout the race" and never came up with anything I was completely satisfied with.

RE: What is the USMS Official rule for breastroke pullout?

Former Member — Fri, 27 Aug 2010 15:01:51 GMT

(at Nationals a couple weeks ago, most such calls were overturned upon keen video inspection....raising in my mind a quandary....swimmers may get DQed at regular meets because they are not 'saved' by the video replay) It was my understanding that video of a swim cannot be used in settling DQ issues. If would not be fair to do so unless you have a every lane covered, else a person who had a camera on them could be DQed or have their DQ overturned while another swimmer who performed the exact same thing would not be DQed or have their DQ overturned.

RE: What is the USMS Official rule for breastroke pullout?

Former Member — Fri, 27 Aug 2010 14:55:11 GMT

My take on the FINA rule change was similar to Paul's, that FINA had blown it by allowing one kick which just led to swimmers trying to take two. While reading this thread I began to wonder if a more reasonable interpretation was that you get one and only one movement that resembles a dolphin kick, so you have the choice of doing a dolphin kick early in the pull and then executing the pull down with absolutely no hint of a dolphin kick whether due to natural undulation or not, or you can build your dolphin kick into the natural undulation, but not both. I have no idea if officials are instructed to interpret it this way or not but it makes the FINA rule more understandable than if you allow one early dolphin plus a "natural undulation". Popular folklore has it that the change in the FINA rule was based largely on the Kitajima incident in Athens but the issue of incorporating a dolphin kick into the natural undulation of the pull down was a much wider issue that needed to be dealt with.

RE: What is the USMS Official rule for breastroke pullout?

pwolf66 — Fri, 27 Aug 2010 12:41:02 GMT

Yes, I should have said the swimmer may make at most one movement resembling a dolphin kick, including any "natural undulation" during the pull down. I can't believe that I'm defending FINA but it really is rather difficult to find precise wording. It would be an interesting exercise to go through the rules and find faulty rules and try and come up with a bulletproof wording. I tried to do that for the butterfly rule saying you must perform the arm action "throughout the race" and never came up with anything I was completely satisfied with. They had wording that worked until they came up with a new 'interpretation' so, sorry, not letting FINA off the hook.

RE: What is the USMS Official rule for breastroke pullout?

pwolf66 — Fri, 27 Aug 2010 11:28:15 GMT

While reading this thread I began to wonder if a more reasonable interpretation was that you get one and only one movement that resembles a dolphin kick Nice point. The rules say 'the swimmer MAY take a single downward dolphin kick'. Doesn't say has to, say it's at the swimmers discretion. Further evidence that FINA really pooched-the-screw.

RE: What is the USMS Official rule for breastroke pullout?

gdanner — Fri, 27 Aug 2010 09:31:02 GMT

A physics comment....it may be best to... USA-S has a group that analyzes technique and goes around the country showing various club teams and training camps what are the currently accepted conclusions on technique based on scientific analysis. They work with/under the director of biomechanics, Russell Mark. My club team was lucky enough to have one such meeting last year on this topic (unfortunately I can't recall the woman's name who was the USA-S staff member). As of last year, their official take was that there is virtually no difference in speed between doing the kick before or simultaneous to the pullout. Analysis was based on numerous breaststrokers including Kitajima and Soni. I have no idea if USA-S publishes any of this stuff, but they should.

RE: What is the USMS Official rule for breastroke pullout?

Former Member — Thu, 26 Aug 2010 15:44:04 GMT

back to the rules the rule states that the pull must precede the kick (the breaststroke is a cycle stroke, first arms then legs) however, as I understand it, to make allowance for a Japanese swimmer, the rule is interpreted officially to mean that ANY downward or sideways motion of the hands or arms constitutes the beginning of the pull (not whether it was an actual pull) and that there is no rule against a discontinuous pull. thus, a swimmer could - legally - ever so slightly move the hands or arms downward or sideways, take a rather long pause, then actually pull back...back beyond the hips if desired on that first pull off the blocks or wall) since it is virtually impossible to say with certainty (the standard of officiating along with giving the swimmer the benefit of the doubt) what possibly small movements the hands or arms made were accomplished by the swimmer while the official looks through bubbling and eddying water, the call of 'kick before pull' or 'out of sequence' shall be only rarely invoked (at Nationals a couple weeks ago, most such calls were overturned upon keen video inspection....raising in my mind a quandary....swimmers may get DQed at regular meets because they are not 'saved' by the video replay) what seemed to be a clear rule - pull before the kick - turns out to be a legal blur.

RE: What is the USMS Official rule for breastroke pullout?

Former Member — Thu, 26 Aug 2010 15:30:59 GMT

The video above shows well what I was exemplifying in videos I posted in another thread. (Set-up your stroke first then pull) A physics comment....it may be best to sequence the pull and the kick, eg pull mostly through and then dolphin kick. Drag increases dramatically with speed, and thus pulling and kicking at mostly the same time, while it generates a feeling of surge, generates lots of drag. Thus, appears better to incur less drag and keep lower-drag speed for a longer period of time by pulling and then kicking (rather than simultaneous), thus optimizing net propulsion.

RE: What is the USMS Official rule for breastroke pullout?

Former Member — Thu, 26 Aug 2010 15:23:51 GMT

I have always done my dolphin kick just as my full pull is finishing. I don't see what kind of advantage there would be to starting it before the stroke anyway. Is there some advantage? It kinda feels like that dolphin kick is just a natural derivative of my body motion as I pull back. A kick while in streamline would feel like "extra"...maybe that's the advantage they want to eliminate. Don't know...

RE: What is the USMS Official rule for breastroke pullout?

pwolf66 — Thu, 26 Aug 2010 12:20:18 GMT

My take? FINA screwed the pooch on creating this mess. This rule was intended to take the 'interpretation' out of if a swimmer's feet actually kicked or just undulated very strongly as a result of finishing the pullout arm stroke aka the Kitijima Rule. Fine, I'm OK with that. But then the Rules Lawyers(tm) got into it and so then FINA seemed to feel that they needed to state WHEN the kick could occur vis a vis the pullout which gave us the 'can coincide with or immediately follow the arm pull' definition. Anf then, in true human fashion, folks started to game the system and try and put the dolphin kick as early as possible to the point that some folks actually start the kick before the pull even starts, leading to FINA's brilliant interpretation that the pull 'commences with any outward movement of the hands' but didn't state that once the movement has commenced it shall be continuous. So pop those hands 2 inches apart, dolphin kick and THEN 'finish' your pull as hard as you can, and while your at it, try and sneak a 2nd kick in as your feet will naturally undulate if you have a strong snap at the end of your pull. Putting us right back in the mess than FINA thought they were clarifying. I would like to Deek every person who does that for taking a 2nd dolphin kick but can't because, thanks to FINA, this is a rule than can not be enforced by humans as the order of judging is supposed to be check the hands THEN check the feet. So if they kick before the hands move, it's impossible to call from the deck.

RE: What is the USMS Official rule for breastroke pullout?

Beards247 — Thu, 26 Aug 2010 11:05:00 GMT

Sorry for the double post! Other one has been closed.

RE: What is the USMS Official rule for breastroke pullout?

jonblank — Thu, 26 Aug 2010 11:02:05 GMT

I love these parallel threads!

RE: What is the USMS Official rule for breastroke pullout?

aquageek — Thu, 26 Aug 2010 10:59:24 GMT

Did anyone see Gangloff's start on Sunday in the 4 X 100 medley relay? I watched it a few times in slow mo. I could not see any movement of his hands prior to his downward dolphin kick. The camera was to the side however. I have to think it was totally legal given a swimmer of his calibre but I still scratched my head. wolf - what's your take on that?

RE: What is the USMS Official rule for breastroke pullout?

pwolf66 — Thu, 26 Aug 2010 10:49:00 GMT

Found this video on youtube while researching breaststroke drills: YouTube- Swimming - Breaststroke - Underwater Pull, Power Phase For those not able to see the video, the gist is: The dolphin kick can start with any parallel or downward motion of the hands (per the video). Does this rule interpretation apply to USMS? Hopefully someone with authoritative knowledge can give their .02... As I am setting up my drill/practice routines I'd like to do it the right way : ). Thanks :bow: to any or all guru's who reply! Chris Yes, FINA rules apply here.

RE: What is the USMS Official rule for breastroke pullout?

Former Member — Thu, 26 Aug 2010 09:56:24 GMT

I had a very fast time erased at Nats by a DQ for "natural undulation" on my first 25. DQ'd at Nats??? That freakin blows. My last real race in High School (I think it was finals at sectionals) I double fallstarted and had to watch from the deck. The starter totally dragged it too. I was sooo pissed. I think it just feels more natural to dive, streamline for two counts, pull, then kick, then sneak my hands up and start pulling. If I were to do a kick before or at the start of my pull, I'd feel compelled to do another as I finished my pull.

RE: What is the USMS Official rule for breastroke pullout?

Former Member — Thu, 26 Aug 2010 08:21:11 GMT

I would like to Deek every person who does that for taking a 2nd dolphin kick but can't because, thanks to FINA, this is a rule than can not be enforced by humans as the order of judging is supposed to be check the hands THEN check the feet. So if they kick before the hands move, it's impossible to call from the deck. What potentially goes wrong if you watch the feet first and then check if the arms have started the pull?

RE: What is the USMS Official rule for breastroke pullout?

The Fortress — Thu, 26 Aug 2010 06:18:35 GMT

DQ'd at Nats??? That freakin blows. My last real race in High School (I think it was finals at sectionals) I double fallstarted and had to watch from the deck. The starter totally dragged it too. I was sooo pissed. I think it just feels more natural to dive, streamline for two counts, pull, then kick, then sneak my hands up and start pulling. If I were to do a kick before or at the start of my pull, I'd feel compelled to do another as I finished my pull. Yeah, it blew. And it was a double whammy. First I didn't hear the start and just stood there as the championship heat in my age group hit the water. Then, 2 heats later, I swam in a slow heat, went a 32.8 for what would have been fourth, and was DQ'd. It's hard not to undulate when pulling down extremely hard. But I'm faster underwater than on top in breaststroke. I'm a flyer, so having a separate dolphin pre-kick seems to work better for me. So I will persist.

RE: What is the USMS Official rule for breastroke pullout?

pwolf66 — Thu, 26 Aug 2010 05:30:06 GMT

What potentially goes wrong if you watch the feet first and then check if the arms have started the pull? Then you will never see the start of the pull, also in the time you switch from the feet to the hands, they may or may not have started the pull. True if you see a kick and the hands haen't moved, it's a violation but the stroke is defined as a pull followed by a kick. One can see a breaststroke kick being made even if one is focused on the hands but one can not necessarily see a dolphin kick being made in the same situation. It's a valid point but the judging is briefed as hands, then feet.

RE: What is the USMS Official rule for breastroke pullout?

The Fortress — Thu, 26 Aug 2010 05:06:26 GMT

FINA rules apply,but Masters Refs are not intimidated by big names so if you aren't legal you will get DQd.Since the rule change was to help as so many BR swimmers have a"natural undulation" you may well get DQd for your "natural undulation "if you do the early kick.I have tried both and go further underwater with the early kick,but my time to 15 M wasn't faster and the increased oxygen debt wasn't worth it to me.YMMV I had a very fast time erased at Nats by a DQ for "natural undulation" on my first 25. (I guess the judge wasn't judging the way Wolfy says he was supposed to!) But I get father this way, so I will persist. Though my evilstroke events, without the tech suits, will now be very severely reduced.

RE: What is the USMS Official rule for breastroke pullout?

Allen Stark — Thu, 26 Aug 2010 01:37:11 GMT