We blew it

RE: We blew it

Patrick W. Brundage — Thu, 19 Aug 2010 05:17:38 GMT

I bought the FINIS Hydrospeed 2 jammers, they fit me well, but let me get back to you after this weekend. I worry about fragility, they seem a little thin. Right now I can get them for about $70 thru a local store. I still have a pair of Tyr Tracer Light jammers that cost me about $100. They are good jammers but what I find noteworthy is that they are pretty durable; I've used the same pair for 4 taper meets and they probably have some more life in them. But it seems like they've jacked the price up recently. I used Aquablade jammers some time ago and liked them okay. You need to size down and they aren't as durable as the Tracer Lights, but they are also pretty cheap. FS-Pros were hit or miss for me. Sometimes they didn't fit well. And the drawstring was prone to breaking. And for in-season meets, I'd just wear briefs...Thanks. I've contemplated the hydrospeeds, but not yet tried the Tracer Lights. Will have to check those out. Too bad I didn't keep around some of my gently used paper-suit briefs from the 80s!

RE: We blew it

Chris Stevenson — Thu, 19 Aug 2010 05:13:25 GMT

Chris, I agree, even though I haven't tested the new $200+ jammers. As I probably won't pay that kind of $$ for a jammer, based upon your experimentation thus far, any recommendations on more economical jammers that are 'competition worthy?' I bought the FINIS Hydrospeed 2 jammers, they fit me well, but let me get back to you after this weekend. I worry about fragility, they seem a little thin. Right now I can get them for about $70 thru a local store. I still have a pair of Tyr Tracer Light jammers that cost me about $100. They are good jammers but what I find noteworthy is that they are pretty durable; I've used the same pair for 4 taper meets and they probably have some more life in them. But it seems like they've jacked the price up recently. I used Aquablade jammers some time ago and liked them okay. You need to size down and they aren't as durable as the Tracer Lights, but they are also pretty cheap. FS-Pros were hit or miss for me. Sometimes they didn't fit well. And the drawstring was prone to breaking. And for in-season meets, I'd just wear briefs...

RE: We blew it

Patrick W. Brundage — Thu, 19 Aug 2010 04:46:14 GMT

Bottom line: I think that you can find a good-performing jammer that is cheap, and that the ROI for the most expensive jammers is very small, and may even be zero (or negative).Chris, I agree, even though I haven't tested the new $200+ jammers. As I probably won't pay that kind of $$ for a jammer, based upon your experimentation thus far, any recommendations on more economical jammers that are 'competition worthy?'

RE: We blew it

knelson — Thu, 19 Aug 2010 03:56:48 GMT

Let's look at it from a business perspective. What manufacturer is going to create a line of suits that can only be used for US Masters Short Course season? Yes, but the suit companies wouldn't need to "create a line of suits" since they already have/had a line of full-body suits. It's just a matter of cranking out the existing designs. Whether or not even this is economically feasible I can't say.

RE: We blew it

TRYM_Swimmer — Thu, 19 Aug 2010 03:06:34 GMT

Let's look at it from a business perspective. What manufacturer is going to create a line of suits that can only be used for US Masters Short Course season? We're not the center of the Universe, or, at least, the most important ones. I think OW will eventually go the same way.

RE: We blew it

Former Member — Wed, 18 Aug 2010 14:12:37 GMT

On a lighter note, has anyone noticed the "stylish" new womens tech suits as seen in the recent National Championships in CA have reverted to the 1920's: 2304 Will some swimming historian in 2050 see the 2010 tech suits and yell like me, "WTF, how did all these nuns qualify for the national championships? mjm PS. I mean no disrespect to nuns--plenty of them could beat my a$$ in a pool now and plenty of them did when I was in grade school.

RE: We blew it

Former Member — Wed, 18 Aug 2010 13:12:59 GMT

Maybe by the fact that they aren't really any faster than the $60 pair of jammers I bought recently? "Level playing field" to my mind means the suit doesn't play a significant role in the outcome. By "Stud" I meant SwimStud. Sorry for the confusion. Anyway, are you stating unequivocally that the LZR Elite jammers offer no significant advantage over a pair of Aquablade jammers?

RE: We blew it

Chris Stevenson — Wed, 18 Aug 2010 10:54:22 GMT

By "Stud" I meant SwimStud. Sorry for the confusion. Anyway, are you stating unequivocally that the LZR Elite jammers offer no significant advantage over a pair of Aquablade jammers? Yes, I knew that, I was just bumping Stud out of line.:bump: I can state my own opinion pretty unequivocally: that differences between jammers (and even between jammers and briefs) are very small and probably depends much more on things like: -- how much water the material holds -- how tightly and well it fits I don't think these factors have a strong correlation to price. I have worn relatively expensive jammers that didn't fit well, and I just bought a pair of relatively cheap jammers that seem to fit me very well (at least when dry; I'll test them out this weekend). I have done meets in trials/finals format and switched between jammers and briefs and did not see a noticeable difference. So the effect, if present, will be small. YMMV, caveat emptor, and all that. Bottom line: I think that you can find a good-performing jammer that is cheap, and that the ROI for the most expensive jammers is very small, and may even be zero (or negative). Women have tougher choices, unfortunately. Then again, in the bad old days, their suits were always more expensive than ours.

RE: We blew it

jim thornton — Wed, 18 Aug 2010 10:21:24 GMT

I mean no disrespect to nuns--plenty of them could beat my a$$ in a pool now and plenty of them did when I was in grade school. I am pretty sure the statute of limitations doesn't run out on this kind of thing. You might be able to get a nice settlement, especially if you can talk yourself into having "flashbacks" of horrendous buttocks-bashing abuse from yesteryear that have just now surfaced and are causing severe mental anguish. In fact, even though I didn't personally know any nuns growing up, I am starting to have dim memories of having my butt beat by some, too. Yikes, that hurt!

RE: We blew it

jim thornton — Wed, 18 Aug 2010 10:17:51 GMT

By "Stud" I meant SwimStud. Sorry for the confusion. Anyway, are you stating unequivocally that the LZR Elite jammers offer no significant advantage over a pair of Aquablade jammers? I may be able to answer this question for you, at least from my perspective, after Colonies Zones championships. My guess is that the difference would be slight to nil, and primarily based on a placebo effect (spend more $, expect more benefit, swim with more confidence). I tested the LZR Elite jammer for SCY, and though I did a good 50 time (for me) in it, I was not crazy about how the suit felt. There was a sense of water getting trapped in the back, which I don't feel with a normal jammer. I ordered an Aquablade online, and if it gets here in time, I may try both suits at Zones to see if one seems clearly beneficial.

RE: We blew it

Former Member — Tue, 17 Aug 2010 16:30:10 GMT

I'm sure the 168 grams in weight that the $4000 titanium frame saved the rider was enough to let him be the first person to finish the slow recreational ride! Nothing feels better than overtaking some guy on a Cannondale while I'm on my 1986 stock Peugeot, while on an uphill. Gear is great but it's a poor substitute for conditioning and desire. Really though, the tech suit debate has found the secret to immortality...this topic just won't die.

RE: We blew it

Former Member — Tue, 17 Aug 2010 15:25:15 GMT

Given the Gear Acquisition Syndrome (GAS) I see in bikes and guitars, I think the swimming community is lucky those suits were disallowed. www.27bslash6.com/bike.html At the coffee-house start of a slow recreational ride, I debated whether to lock my bike up or not while I got a cup. I decided I didn't need to. I could just lean my bike on the other side of a post from the unlocked bike that had the large label "TITANIUM". My bike would be OK. I'm sure the 168 grams in weight that the $4000 titanium frame saved the rider was enough to let him be the first person to finish the slow recreational ride! Or maybe not. Seeing as how they can make a suit generally agreed to be a bit faster for about a grand, they would eventually figure out how to make a suit that might be even a little bit faster -maybe- and sell it for 10 grand. Certainly the regulatory stuff with the tech suits and speed records is a a cluster F***, but, to me at least, the problem isn't that they are outlawing tech suits now. The problem is that they allowed them ever. Channel rules rule!

RE: We blew it

Former Member — Tue, 17 Aug 2010 11:30:22 GMT

I level the playing field with my ability, training and heart...wear what you like. I really don't care for the suits either way especially in masters. However as a coach and parent I don't want it to become something that junior level USA swimmers start feeling they need at age 11...because others have the "status symbol" suits. I don't mind if a kid makes the national finals...but then it's a slippery slope. At kid level I'd rather see it banned.

RE: We blew it

Former Member — Tue, 17 Aug 2010 11:11:37 GMT

Stud, perhaps you can explain how the playing field has been leveled by allowing $260 LZR Elite jammers.

RE: We blew it

Former Member — Tue, 17 Aug 2010 10:45:16 GMT

What's wrong with having all three? Depends on your POV. Whether you feel it should be across the board, or limited to certain levels of competition, possibly restricted to a certain age group, or maybe even sponsoring those that don't have means to obtain one themselves...other than those examples of stumbling blocks nothing.

RE: We blew it

Chris Stevenson — Tue, 17 Aug 2010 08:26:51 GMT

The evidence so far is unscientific and unsystematic That's for sure.

RE: We blew it

Allen Stark — Tue, 17 Aug 2010 08:17:21 GMT

I thought the times in PR were pretty fast for the people who were there(it was a small meet).I was only slightly slower than last year in the 100 & 200 BR and actually faster in the 50 BR.Robert Wright was much faster than last year.If you are slightly slower you can be really fast and not break a record.The suits made a difference,but less than I thought they would.Also,last year was at Indy,a really fast pool,where as this was just a fast pool.

RE: We blew it

The Fortress — Tue, 17 Aug 2010 08:00:29 GMT

I level the playing field with my ability, training and heart... Won't be enough. I'm still gonna squash you like a bug in the 50 free on Saturday. :D

RE: We blew it

Former Member — Tue, 17 Aug 2010 07:43:06 GMT

Gear is great but it's a poor substitute for conditioning and desire. What's wrong with having all three? It will be interesting to see how the tech suit ban affects this year's 5K/10K Postal swims.

RE: We blew it

The Fortress — Tue, 17 Aug 2010 07:36:30 GMT

You might be buying comfort or durability. Uh, nope. Tom, that is very cynical. I hope it's not true. I'm slightly bummed that the 2009 World Masters Games are included in the LCM rankings. Those swims were done last October with tech suits, while LC this summer is no tech.

RE: We blew it

Chris Stevenson — Tue, 17 Aug 2010 07:17:34 GMT

Perhaps you can explain how the playing field has been leveled by allowing $260 LZR Elite jammers. Maybe by the fact that they aren't really any faster than the $60 pair of jammers I bought recently? "Level playing field" to my mind means the suit doesn't play a significant role in the outcome. Spend away, if you wish. You might be buying comfort or durability. But not speed, not any more.:banana:

RE: We blew it

Chris Stevenson — Tue, 17 Aug 2010 06:56:50 GMT

Speed suits are legal for long distance, are they not? I thought they were illegal for any pool swims, but I could be wrong. Imagine struggling for an entire 10k in a jammer only to find your competitors were all floating along in a B70! They are illegal for pool swims but currently legal for open water swims. FINA has made them illegal (maybe since June 1?) for its OW events but I think hasn't yet ruled about masters. Or maybe they won't make a separate ruling for masters. (If masters pool swimming was pretty low on their priority list, you can imagine how low masters OW swimming is.) I seem to recall that they didn't want to change the rules in mid-summer for masters, which makes sense. I don't know what the future holds for tech suits and masters OW swimming. (I confess I don't pay close attention to OW swimming...)

RE: We blew it

tjrpatt — Tue, 17 Aug 2010 06:14:57 GMT

I thought they were illegal for any pool swims, but I could be wrong. Imagine struggling for an entire 10k in a jammer only to find your competitors were all floating along in a B70! Jim, You know people are going to wear cheating suits for the 5K/10K postals even though the entry form clearly states that they aren't allowed.

RE: We blew it

aquageek — Tue, 17 Aug 2010 05:57:22 GMT

Speed suits are legal for long distance, are they not? No, they are not legal for any pool swims any longer.

RE: We blew it

jim thornton — Tue, 17 Aug 2010 05:33:40 GMT

I thought they were illegal for any pool swims, but I could be wrong. Imagine struggling for an entire 10k in a jammer only to find your competitors were all floating along in a B70!