Swim Myth #7.....busted

RE: Swim Myth #7.....busted

Former Member — Thu, 22 Mar 2012 15:53:44 GMT

Exhale out of both the mouth and nose. If you only use the mouth you can take water in through the nose when explosive breathing. Gary I have experimented with this pattern the last week and feel outstanding...WOW! Question: I do struggle with getting a full breath on the 2nd consecutive so is this merely a function of exhaling more forcefully? Timing issue I'm not aware of? I am always instantly exhaling though my nose if my face is in the water. Perhaps I need to exhale through my mouth to get more out? Thanks

RE: Swim Myth #7.....busted

Former Member — Thu, 22 Mar 2012 13:05:44 GMT

Gary I have experimented with this pattern the last week and feel outstanding...WOW! Question: I do struggle with getting a full breath on the 2nd consecutive so is this merely a function of exhaling more forcefully? Timing issue I'm not aware of? I am always instantly exhaling though my nose if my face is in the water. Perhaps I need to exhale through my mouth to get more out? Thanks

RE: Swim Myth #7.....busted

Former Member — Thu, 22 Mar 2012 12:59:16 GMT

I have been experimenting with this pattern and instantly I felt better. Still having some issues exhaling forcefully enough on consecutive breaths, but it's coming. It proves to me I *thought* I was exhaling completely, but really never was. Typically anything over a 200 and I was in serious oxygen debt, but peeled off a nice 500 with flip turns and was laughing under water at how fun it was to not be worried about shallow water blackout! Anyone have any tips or tricks on retraining your brain to exhale hard enough on the consecutive breaths so that you can get a nice full breath? THIS is a great problem to have, but would like to learn how others adapted and apply those traits. Thanks Gary!

RE: Swim Myth #7.....busted

Former Member — Fri, 09 Mar 2012 16:06:46 GMT

It actually looks like he doing a 3:4 breathing pattern at times. That is a great video. It is impossible to know how fast, but he would have been SO fast with all the changes and suit advances. He was clearly an outlier in the field. 4 guys battled for 2nd with 1.08 separting the 4. But Darnyi beats them by more than 2 seconds.

RE: Swim Myth #7.....busted

__steve__ — Fri, 09 Mar 2012 04:47:53 GMT

Some people must naturally have a higher revving breathing pattern

RE: Swim Myth #7.....busted

Former Member — Thu, 08 Mar 2012 16:25:22 GMT

Sorry to dust off this antique thread, but I just noticed something and wanted to share an example of 2:3 breathing pattern at an elite level. (Warning: You might want to turn down the volume because the Magyar commentator is very exuberant!) Darnyi TamÃ¡s - SzÃ¶ul 1988 (400 vegyes) - YouTube It is Darnyi Tamas setting the world record for 400 IM in Seoul. The freestyle leg starts at 3:15 or so, and he is initially breathing nearly every stroke but when it evens out he is doing a 2:3 pattern. It seems he can't breathe enough! In Barcelona, Darnyi again used 2:3 in the 400 IM but the footage is much less clear. Darnyi also had the world record at 200 IM. From what I can see it seems he is in "sprint mode" during the freestyle leg -- keeping his breathing to a minimum. So here is the same athlete using different breathing tactics for freestyle at 400 IM and 200 IM.

RE: Swim Myth #7.....busted

Patrick W. Brundage — Thu, 08 Mar 2012 11:48:52 GMT

Sorry to dust off this antique thread, but I just noticed something and wanted to share an example of 2:3 breathing pattern at an elite level. (Warning: You might want to turn down the volume because the Magyar commentator is very exuberant!) Darnyi TamÃ¡s - SzÃ¶ul 1988 (400 vegyes) - YouTube It is Darnyi Tamas setting the world record for 400 IM in Seoul. The freestyle leg starts at 3:15 or so, and he is initially breathing nearly every stroke but when it evens out he is doing a 2:3 pattern. It seems he can't breathe enough!Thanks for posting this. So many interesting bits to note in this race compared to today like no underwater SDK and no rollover turns. Darnyi's breaststroke, if you watch compared to the other guys, is much more akin to the strokes you see today than the "flat" style that was more common then (e.g., see Wharton and whoever was in Lane 4). What a beautiful swim.

RE: Swim Myth #7.....busted

Former Member — Tue, 07 Sep 2010 07:51:36 GMT

Also a good idea for the last few minutes of a swim. Eliminate a hard kick before a change over. A light no effort kick would work. The legs consume a lot of oxygen in long swims.

RE: Swim Myth #7.....busted

Former Member — Tue, 07 Sep 2010 07:30:07 GMT

I am very intriqued by this myth because of the adaptation to triathlon and aquathlon. When I get out of the water it takes me a good 2 minutes or so to feel normal and I think that is because of the oxygen debt. I think what I might try is a 3:4 pattern for the last 60 seconds of the swim.

RE: Swim Myth #7.....busted

Former Member — Sat, 04 Sep 2010 13:07:52 GMT

OK, I tried this today too and now I have some questions. I may be a little dense so go slowly with me: 1. As I am streamling off of the wall with both arms in front, I begin to take my first stroke with my left hand. If I were to breath on that first stroke, I would be breathing to my left side, so what does LBR mean? How do you pull with your left hand and breath to your right? Am I missing something here? 2. Now, lets say I have taken that left hand/arm pull and breath to my left side. Then I take a right arm pull and breath to my right. That's now a 1:1 cycle, correct? How do you take two breaths in a row like that and have much time to exhale before taking the next breathe? I can do that of course, but it feels like I am not taking a full breathe, nor am I exhaling fully. Maybe it just takes more practice to get comfortable with. 3. After taking a breathe which each arm stroke now, i.e., left breathe, right breathe, left no breathe, now I start the cycle again but this time starting on the right side, correct? Dear Glen, When you are pulling underwater with your left arm, you'd better be breathing to the right side....or you have a real problem. But you got #3 right...you breathe two strokes in succession, then hold one stroke, then begin two in a row on the same side you took your last breath. You should have plenty of time to exhale before getting your next breath, even with 2 successive breaths. Hold the air in your lungs....in all breathing patterns, as long as you can for more buoyancy. More buoyancy means less drag. Gary

RE: Swim Myth #7.....busted

Glenn — Sat, 04 Sep 2010 09:28:03 GMT

Thanks Gary. I've been working on it the last few days and it feels easier each time I do it. It was just awkward in the beginning.

RE: Swim Myth #7.....busted

Former Member — Tue, 31 Aug 2010 13:48:50 GMT

Breathing every cycle for distance swimming is good. What I see most do, is blowing out too hard. Many try to expel all of their air and I would rather breathe as if I were out for a long walk, take air in (not gulping) and not forcing the air out.

RE: Swim Myth #7.....busted

moodyrichardson — Tue, 31 Aug 2010 09:05:41 GMT

Ok. I know this is coming from a real racing newb, but hang with me. This kind of fits with the whole O2 discussion. If it needs to be moved, please move. The more I compete, I'm finding that I'm not as much of a sprinter as a distance swimmer. My main problem is coming into the flip. Since I'm farily new to it, I tend to really have to blow out of my nose to keep the water out. By the time I do my SDK's and get to the breakout, my toes are tingling. Troubleshooters? Suggestions? Also, I tend to swim breathing every 4 and to my left. I've tried different breathing patterns, and this tends to feel the best for me. My coach is constantly telling me to breathe more often in distance, but everything else I try seems to wind me. Is that something that will come with more experience, or is it just something I need to keep working on? Thanks for any advice.

RE: Swim Myth #7.....busted

Former Member — Tue, 31 Aug 2010 08:37:29 GMT

Despite what I just said above, I still think bilateral breathing ability is good to have, particularly for OW races. I agree. It sure seems that a greater percentage of women both train and race breathing every three. My guess is that because they typically have a higher stroke rate than men, the end result is that they take roughly the same number of breaths per length as most men.

RE: Swim Myth #7.....busted

rtodd — Tue, 31 Aug 2010 07:53:00 GMT

I breathe only to one side and I think I have developed an imbalance in my stroke. the most glaring issue is I breathe to my left, but I notice in OW I drift right. As a result I am bilateral breathing in warm up and cool down and I am also trying certain sets this way. Maybe raciing every breath is good, but I would not eliminate bilateral from a workout.

RE: Swim Myth #7.....busted

Glenn — Tue, 31 Aug 2010 06:37:39 GMT

RE: Swim Myth #7.....busted

Patrick W. Brundage — Tue, 31 Aug 2010 04:16:54 GMT

Grant Hackett 1500m video: YouTube- Grant Hackett Front Crawl Technique He breathes once every stroke cycle - always on his right side. He breathes into and out of every turn. At the 1:20 mark you can see him take an additional breath on his left side going into the turn. I've watched quite a few 1500m videos of elite level men and breathing once per stroke cycle and into/out of turns seems to be the norm.This video has changed my life. I've known for awhile that elite d-guys tended to breathe every two, but I never paid attention to the turns. I've been trying to break a bi-lateral breathing pattern ingrained in me for 30+ years of swimming and to breathe to my left side only, the stronger of my two breathing sides. However, to do that means that I either need to: breathe the first stroke off the wall (because I've tried, but can't succeed in breaking the habit of pulling with my left arm first off the wall); OR taking 3 strokes off the wall before breathing (a non-starter); OR do what I'm doing now: take 2 right breaths off the the wall, 3 strokes and then breathe every 2 to the left side the rest of the race. If breathing off the wall is good enough for Grant Hackett, it's good enough for me. ...My age-group coaches drilled bilateral breathing into us so much that I no longer know which side is my weak side for breathing. I breathe every 3 (1.5?) automatically. I also keep hearing disparaging comments about breathing every 3 - is it really that bad? I guess I should experiment more with my own swims to see if there's a difference....Despite what I just said above, I still think bilateral breathing ability is good to have, particularly for OW races.

RE: Swim Myth #7.....busted

Jim Clemmons — Tue, 31 Aug 2010 03:50:11 GMT

...But you do have a choice...sort of. First, you can learn to swim with a higher stroke rate and second, you can try a different breathing pattern. Specifically, I am referring to a 2:3 pattern rather than a 1:2 pattern of breathing. What that means in the Left Stroke Breath Right (LBR), Right Stroke Breathe Left (RBL) Left Stroke no breath (L), Right Stroke no breath (R) terminology is the following: LBR, RBL, L, RBL, LBR, R, LBR, RBL, L etc So, as is so common in swimming, this too presents compromise. What are the pros and cons? Pros: You get 27% more oxygen than if you breathe every cycle, and with oxygen you'll produce 15 times more ATP than without it, and hopefully produce less lactate. You get the associated benefit of breathing more...less fatigue. You get to see the scenery on both sides of the lake or pool. Cons: Most swimmers feel awkward breathing to their weak side. The act of breathing slows the stroke rate. Breathing often results in the arm being pulled too far under the body, creating more drag. In open water swims, if there is a nice swell on one side, breathing to that side may lead to swallowing more water. So this begs the question, if this 2:3 pattern is so good, why aren’t world-class distance swimmers using it? ... And for those swimmers who dare to try it (and it takes some getting used to), you may not actually swim any faster than by breathing every cycle, but, barring swallowing more water, I'll bet you will feel a lot better afterward. Gary Sr. I took this on as a challenge, at least to try it out until I can get it to the habit point. Then I'll try it out in a 200 or 400 this scm season and see what develops. It's actually an interesting exercise in mental focus. (Maybe that's my hardest part :D) I've tried increasing turnover in the past, but my stroke doesn't seem to lend itself to allowing me to do so. When I started the breathing pattern last week, (Wed., 8/25) I really had a hard time adjusting to the pattern, having to forget everything else but breathing. I used to breath on my left side, but, about 7 years ago transitioned to my right, so, going back to the left is a bit challenging, but not overly so. Sometimes we forget that making adjustments is only a decision and the sooner we decide, the sooner we'll make progress. I found if I start too soon in a swim I can get dizzy, so am waiting to around the 75 or so point in some longer swims to initiate the pattern. I also have to concentrate on keeping the head from whipping around too severly, otherwise, I can start to lose the centerpoint of my intended line within the lane.

RE: Swim Myth #7.....busted

Former Member — Mon, 30 Aug 2010 12:52:18 GMT

May be that your 200 pace is almost the same speed as your 100 pace???

RE: Swim Myth #7.....busted

Allen Stark — Mon, 30 Aug 2010 09:54:10 GMT

May be that your 200 pace is almost the same speed as your 100 pace??? No,at 200 pace my goal 200 time is 1:16-18.100 pace would be significantly faster.

RE: Swim Myth #7.....busted

Former Member — Sun, 29 Aug 2010 14:52:03 GMT

Here's a myth for all: you breathe because you need oxygen. NO! your primary urge to breathe is because you need to get rid or excess C02, a result of your metabolic process. You live in a normal partial pressure of C02 in your blood of around 40. As that goes up, while holding your breath, (in between inhaling air) you have the urge to breathe. It is based on sensors in your body. The ability to not breathe longer is purely mental. The first 20 or more or less seconds in an all out effort are done with cellular oxygen, so that breathing is not a factor. This is too complicated to expound on this forum, but do a research or look up the respiratory process in google. If you hold your breath (I have done that) for a minute or more your oxygen saturation does not alter. If you breathe pure oxygen, your respiratory rate will still be the same, even though you are getting more oxygen. The oxygen thing in airplanes and hospitals is because of a decreased offer (altitude) or decreased absorption (lung problems) or delivery (cardiac problems) or the use of opiods (which make your urge to breathe less evident). Everything said or argued above is correct, except that the lung expansion is necessary to remove C02, secondary to oxygen absorption. So why do we need to breathe more when swimming sprints using our legs more and so forth? Because we are producing more C02....billy fanstone One thing you are forgetting. The need for ATP and Oxygen changes dramatically during exercise. To produce a lot of ATP we need more O2. Gary

RE: Swim Myth #7.....busted

Former Member — Sun, 29 Aug 2010 12:30:22 GMT

health.howstuffworks.com/.../sports-physiology.htm people.eku.edu/.../301notes6.htm Gary: a couple of thoughts, not mine originally. "The more I know, the less I know" or "the more I study, the more confused I get" and "what you believe in does not make it the truth". All these apply to me. Dang, I wish someone would clear this issue once and for all. I have been studying, asking other doctors, looking stuff up in the internet and there are still areas that are in the dark. For instance, it is well known that ATP lasts 8 to 10 seconds in the Phosphagen System, 90 seconds for the Glycogen-Lactic Acid System, and then indefinitely for the Aerobic System. So you could say that an exercise full out lasting less than a minute and a half would need no oxygen. That would cover most sprints in swimming. When going underwater with no breathing for over 25 meters, for instance, or swimming 50 and above with no breathing, is it the oxygen that is limiting us or is it the C02 drive? If you are told to go without breathing for a distance, don't you dose your speed with your time, i.e. the faster you go the sooner you will get there, but the faster you go, the more C02 builds up and makes you want to breathe. And lastly, there's an article that says C02 is not a factor in increasing respiratory rate in exercise, there are other factors. So now, I am back to zero, starting all over. Here is my understanding in the simplest way I can explain this physiology. We need ATP to make the muscle contract. We have stored high energy phosphate in the form of ATP and Creatine Phosphate (other?) and we produce ATP either anaerobically (without oxygen), producing 2 moles of ATP from each glucose molecule or aerobically (with oxygen), producing approx 30 moles of ATP from each molecule of glucose. Anaerobic production of ATP is not only less efficient (by a factor of 15) but also produces lactic acid as a byproduct. Now, here are some facts (I believe): 1) Available (stored) ATP or other high energy phosphate is used up in approximately 20 seconds of maximal exertion. 2) The two systems of producing ATP (aerobic and anaerobic) work simultaneously, not one then the other; though it takes longer for the the aerobic system to get into full swing. 3) The production of enough lactic acid, lowering the pH of the body, reduces efficiency of the muscle contraction (for several reasons). 4) The act of breathing in all strokes except backstroke, reduce speed in swimming by either slowing the stroke rate or increasing drag or both. 5) Having air in the lungs increases buoyancy and reduces drag. Now the most important thing to glean from all this is to use common sense. Learn from the champions. The winners of the 50 sprint take zero or one breath (except Dara Torres...there is always an exception). Most of the time, the 50 is won or lost in the last 10 meters, when lactic acid is coming on the scene. When Gary Jr won the 50 in athens he took a breath 10 meters from the wall, but then finished faster than everyone else. Cielo won in Bejing without breathing. Every male who has won the 100 m fly since 1984, except Pablo Morales in 1992 (who barely hung on to win), has breathed every stroke. So, once we get past the 50, most swimmers breath as often as they can...even at the expense of increasing drag. Bottom line, we need 02...lots of it when racing...and when you get to be my age, you need it more than ever. I am not sure the 2:3 pattern will ever be adopted by world class distance swimmers, because they are so aerobically fit, they have trained their body to function better with oxygen deprivation. So the increase drag or slowed stroke rate may not be worth it. There is not one human on the planet who would willingly breath at the respiratory rate of a world class swimmer breathing every cycle in a 1500 (30 to 40 respirations per minute) unless he or she had no choice. The human body is capable of amazing adaption...and that is what training is all about. Gary Sr. The Race Club

RE: Swim Myth #7.....busted

Allen Stark — Sun, 29 Aug 2010 10:38:58 GMT

There is also a phenomenon I have observed in my self that leads me to believe there is a psychological component.If I swim a 100 at 200 pace I don't have much trouble keeping the pace,but if I stop at the 75 ,I am suddenly tired,almost as tired as if I had swum the full 100.

RE: Swim Myth #7.....busted

Former Member — Sun, 29 Aug 2010 08:52:15 GMT

Swimming a 50, you dont have to breathe and it is easy to keep streamline when you are not taking a breath. No need for ATP and Oxygen a 50 takes between 22 t0 28 seconds or slightly more depending on your speed.

RE: Swim Myth #7.....busted

Former Member — Sun, 29 Aug 2010 08:39:48 GMT

Slow billy fanstone coming out of a flip turn, needs to breathe real fast or else he will explode. If he blows less air out he lasts longer, but then he drowns with water ingested through his nose. Isn't this C02 buildup? And what limits some swimmers in their underwater dolphin kicks in the back and fly and free? Is it the oxygen lack or the C02 buildup? Why do I progressively lose my capacity to go further under water or further swimming without breathing, even if I do rest stops? Wouldn't the rest stops get my C02 normal? And my oxygen? Still confused. Plus, Noakes says you are born with most of your V02 Max, you can only make it better by 15% with training....billy fanstone