Set-up your stroke first then pull

RE: Set-up your stroke first then pull

Former Member — Wed, 18 Aug 2010 14:24:29 GMT

Maybe drag is an important phase when swimming. The drag gives you time to reload.

RE: Set-up your stroke first then pull

Former Member — Wed, 18 Aug 2010 13:37:00 GMT

I guess if you define your frame of reference to be the end of the paddle then the end of the paddle will by definition stay still and you can think about the paddle as a 2nd class lever. Perhaps it is even helpful when coaching people with a limited knowledge of physics. From an engineering/physics point of view it's a bit of a stretch as the end of the paddle will be moving with respect to both the earth and the boat, and any forward momentum gained by the boat is always exactly equal to the backward momentum of the water the blade was pushing. The rower's or swimmer's objective is to minimize slip by maximizing the amount of water that they are pushing, resulting in a larger mass of water moving at lesser velocity (less slip). www.atm.ox.ac.uk/.../basics.html Please note that I still utterly reject the notion of "surprising the water" although I would not be shocked if that too had some appeal to some coaches. I want everyone in my boat and I don't care if we agree or not! To meet the people who have replied to me would be like having carrot cake with my coffee (it makes me smile). Good luck, Coach T. To the world you may be just one person, but to one person you may be the world.” Brandi Snyder

RE: Set-up your stroke first then pull

Former Member — Wed, 18 Aug 2010 10:47:23 GMT

A convincing argument for "sculling" action? YouTube- Curious Fish at Eden Rock in Grand Cayman :fish2::fish2: Feet offer the best example of sculling like a fish and if you have a strong kick, big and flexible foot, you're golden but the most propulsive force in world class swimming is the drag force produced from a properly set-up hand. George Bush quotes George Bush: human being and fish can coexist peacefull

RE: Set-up your stroke first then pull

Former Member — Wed, 18 Aug 2010 10:31:53 GMT

A convincing argument for "sculling" action? YouTube- Curious Fish at Eden Rock in Grand Cayman :fish2::fish2:

RE: Set-up your stroke first then pull

fritznh — Wed, 18 Aug 2010 08:34:55 GMT

Whether swimming, paddling and rowing, the water will always be the fulcrum if we want our strokes to be effective in propelling us through the water. Considerable amount of money and time has been invested designing and developing blades for racing rowing shells, kayaks and canoes for exploiting that great wall of water as a fulcrum, including that new figure 8 band for swimming. The objective being to extend the duration of holding water, which only a 2nd class lever does well, so our stroke will be more efficient, effective and go faster. Regarding the bar, I can tie a sack of potatoes to it, in the middle and lift it by raising the unattached end. And most certainly vault myself into the wall with the bar attached to it just above the floor to a height of 18 inches. If I were younger, I probably could do 3 ft.? Perhaps, if we level the playing surface, and I use a long skateboard and a long paddle like pole, I can propel myself all around town like those big kids do on the promenade. Regarding the oarlocks, yes, it is a popular and common misconception to think of them as the fulcrum, which is understandable, since we all grew up playing on seesaws. However, they are not, for they represent the load or boat. And now you know why FISA calls "oars as simple levers of the second order." I do not see the point. As Lindsay implied, there is a force balance between the thrust generated by the arms and legs and the drag of the body (and parts of the arms) through the water. When the two are equal, that's when you've reached your maximum speed for that amount of effort. How does defining your arms as simple levers help you swim faster, even from a conceptual point of view? Wouldn't it be more helpful to think about proper positioning of your arms for both maximum efficiency and greatest mechanical leverage? Just curious.

RE: Set-up your stroke first then pull

Former Member — Tue, 17 Aug 2010 15:09:53 GMT

RE: Set-up your stroke first then pull

Former Member — Tue, 17 Aug 2010 13:50:45 GMT

I don't buy that. What kind of explaination do you need. The body of a swimmer is the boat and the hands and feet are the engine. Tom, I am not a scientist, and I did not spend 25 years of my life developing on one subject. I don't even know what Dr.Maglischo would consider as a *certainty* on this topic, and I leave it up to him to apply scientific rigor to the outcome whatever it is and whenever it comes. And if you're comfortable with your boat having hands and feet as engines, then fine! You don't absolutely need me in that boat do you?

RE: Set-up your stroke first then pull

Former Member — Tue, 17 Aug 2010 12:54:35 GMT

RE: Set-up your stroke first then pull

Former Member — Tue, 17 Aug 2010 12:07:01 GMT

Well you should at least buy the book. Not a luxury for a coach nowadays. Result of 25-30 years of researches. Read it a long time ago.

RE: Set-up your stroke first then pull

Former Member — Tue, 17 Aug 2010 09:49:38 GMT

A Go Swim video about the Finis Fulcrum: (figure-eight looking brace) Finis - Forearm Fulcrum on Vimeo

RE: Set-up your stroke first then pull

Former Member — Tue, 17 Aug 2010 09:27:22 GMT

Not to butt in... Is that the intent of these figure-eight looking wrist braces that the coach had my daughter using? I think it was to keep her from slapping the water and hand-braking (reaching out so far forward that her fingertips would tend to point upward). Also, I noticed when I'm gassed, my hands don't always push back on my follow through. I find myself letting them come in toward my thigh and I know I'm losing some extra push by doing so. I'm not overly concerned because I'm a breaststroker, but I was thinking of getting these devices to train my hand/forearm discipling.

RE: Set-up your stroke first then pull

Elaine Krugman — Tue, 17 Aug 2010 07:22:11 GMT

Thanks for posting the video, Lindsay. I've never seen this before, but it looks like a great training tool. Has anybody out there used it? Your feedback??

RE: Set-up your stroke first then pull

Former Member — Mon, 16 Aug 2010 16:52:18 GMT

I don't buy that. What kind of explaination do you need. The body of a swimmer is the boat and the hands and feet are the engine. I think we can talk about the nuances of propulsion but in the sport of swimming the body is moved forward by using drag and lift forces created by the hands and feet. Sure it can get complicated and when trying to sort out the best way an individual can get faster, it is scientific (just look at this related information en.wikipedia.org/.../Drag_(physics). There are specific things that make swimmers faster than others and we know what they are and we should all agree on certain things. The most important thing is how early a swimmer can set-up their stroke to create an effective drag force (paddling backward) and how long they can keep effective drag forces in that efficient propulsive position. We should all agree that reduction of drag or improving streamlining, as it relates to the body or vessel as it moves forward, is important to speed. We should all agree that improving flexibility and strength, as it relates to the maximum effective potential a swimmer can exert without slipping (reducing maximum drag force the hand can create) is important. We should all agree that physical differences within the discriptions of a Ectomorph, Mesomorph and Endomorph can be limiting or delimiting factors in relationship to swimming speed. We should all agree that no matter what physical limitations a swimmer might have, improving should be a realistic goal that all swimmers can share. We should all agree that the infinite physical differences from swimmer to swimmer will require variences of every technical swimming model a person may present. Good luck, Coach T. “To believe with certainty we must begin with doubting.” King Stanislaus of Poland “If you resist reading what you disagree with, how will you ever acquire deeper insights into what you believe? The things most worth reading are precisely those that challenge our convictions.” exactly

RE: Set-up your stroke first then pull

Former Member — Mon, 16 Aug 2010 15:20:40 GMT

RE: Set-up your stroke first then pull

Former Member — Mon, 16 Aug 2010 14:55:09 GMT

Exactly what happens when the water is the fulcrum (2nd class lever) and not the load. And why some swimmers are faster than others because they are moving themselves forward and not wasting energy moving water backwards. Reminds me of the textbook that shows a picture of a fisherman rowing a boat and incorrectly calling the oarlocks the fulcrum. It's not actually possible to use a paddle as a 2nd class lever. The 2nd class lever scenario you are putting forth has the upper hand working as the force, pushing the end of the paddle forward, the lower hand working as the load, therefore pulling the middle of the paddle backward, and the bottom of the paddle acting as the fulcrum. This is actually a 1st class lever with the lower hand acting as the fulcrum. The water won't apply a net force on the paddle unless the paddle is moving through the water, in which case it doesn't meet the definition of a fulcrum as the paddle will be pivoting around the lower hand. Consider a bar attached to a solid wall with a hinge, you are holding it with one hand at the end, and the other half way, the equivalent to what you are suggesting is that you could push the bar up with the hand at the end of the bar while hanging by the hand in the middle of the bar. This is clearly impossible because the sum of the forces you exert on the bar will always amount to the force of gravity on your mass. So the text book was in fact correct, the oar locks are the fulcrum, i.e. the fixed point around which the oar will rotate.

RE: Set-up your stroke first then pull

Former Member — Mon, 16 Aug 2010 13:24:42 GMT

RE: Set-up your stroke first then pull

Former Member — Mon, 16 Aug 2010 11:41:33 GMT

A canoe paddle can be used as all three (3) levers, but only when used as a 2nd class lever will propel the canoe forward. This is the crux of the matter. Consider the case of using the paddle as a 1st class lever, i.e. top hand pushing forward and bottom hand holding stationary. The top hand is placing a forward force on the paddle which generates a backward force against the water at the other end of the paddle. The water exerts an equal and opposite forward force on the paddle. The lower hand has to exert a backward force on the paddle equal to the sum of these two forward forces. That means the paddle is exerting an equal and opposite forward force on the lower hand, and it is this force that causes you and the boat to be propelled forward. Performing a similar analysis on the case of a 3rd class lever is left as an exercise for the reader. :)

RE: Set-up your stroke first then pull

fritznh — Mon, 16 Aug 2010 09:30:58 GMT

And finally, there should be a law against posting videos like this one: ">www.videojug.com/.../how-to-swim-butterfly-stroke" Especially if your domain name is swim-teach.com Ouch!

RE: Set-up your stroke first then pull

Former Member — Mon, 16 Aug 2010 09:25:12 GMT

Got timed out on the reply and unable to recover it so here goes a briefer one: I really enjoy all the different responses and yes I read his first book and many others a long time ago. Anyway, regarding 3rd class levers, I belive the problem today is the way they are illustrated with the fulcrum incorrectly placed in the same position as a 2nd class lever. This is an error that has been repeated over and over for the past 50+ years, and caused so many erroneous opinions. Using a broom should demonstrate that the fulcrum should be placed on the opposing or opposite side of the lever or it will not work. A canoe paddle can be used as all three (3) levers, but only when used as a 2nd class lever will propel the canoe forward. As a 1st class lever, the fulcrum becomes the lower arm, and the load (water) travels in the opposite direction of the force (top hand). As a 3rd class lever, the fulcrum becomes the top hand, and the load (water) travels in the same direction of the force (bottom hand). Levers in anatomy are internal and should be kept separate from the action that's external. Whether drag, lift, vortex shedding or axial flow, they all involve the action of forces that act in pairs. The trick is making a better marriage of them with EVF. clyde

RE: Set-up your stroke first then pull

Former Member — Mon, 16 Aug 2010 06:21:01 GMT

I suspect that Maglischo was shy about making definite statements after going through the whole lift forces debacle. While swimming is complicated to analyze in detail we can experimentally determine many of the gross mechanisms. We can measure the drag forces on the body as a whole and we can measure the drag forces on individual limbs to determine their approximate contributions. We know without a doubt that Bernoulli's principle doesn't apply to human hands and arms. We know that the vortex theory completely failed to look at the relative magnitudes of the forces postulated. We know that some really fast swimmers pull straight back, not using lift forces in their pull at all. Hopefully we have learned that hypotheses should be tested before being published. Ok, I'm officially on a tirade. :blah: Isn't it odd that "drowning" is the only swimming related smiley? It's mildly amusing that messages I post show up in my inbox before the web page I submit them with changes. And finally, there should be a law against posting videos like this one: ">www.videojug.com/.../how-to-swim-butterfly-stroke" Especially if your domain name is swim-teach.com

RE: Set-up your stroke first then pull

Former Member — Mon, 16 Aug 2010 05:36:51 GMT

I don't buy that Well you should at least buy the book. Not a luxury for a coach nowadays. Result of 25-30 years of researches.

RE: Set-up your stroke first then pull

Former Member — Sun, 15 Aug 2010 13:07:13 GMT

No one has yet identified with certainty the way swimmers propel the body through the water. All we have are theories, and they have varied considerably through the years. Ernest W. Maglischo, 2003. Just to add to what you're explaining, the reason Clyde may think that the hand doesn't move back, is that the entry and exit points are virtually at same location. The detail that is overlooked though is that after entering, then hand travels forward quite a lot. Therefore it travels back to exit pretty close to entry point. There may be a few theoreticians who still pick Lift as the main source of propulsion at all strokes, but I think the highest profiles have changed camp over the last few decades. What I find particularly interesting nowadays though, is that when you speak to the swimmers themselves, those who are bloody fast I mean, most seem to have simplified the mental image of a good pulling path. Most describe it as being from point A straight back to point B. I had this chat with a very young future master fancying lowering the 200fly U2:00. Asked him recently, pull straight back, no fancy stuff, as simple as that. So it seems the message went through quite nicely.

RE: Set-up your stroke first then pull

Former Member — Sat, 14 Aug 2010 11:44:09 GMT

First of all; whether you are swimming, rowing a shell, paddling a canoe or kayak; the water is the fulcrum for your 2nd class lever. The water is not the load. The load is your body, the shell, the canoe or kayak. The force comes from the top hand pushing forward on the canoe or kayak paddle, and the hands pulling back on the oar handles. The load is between the force and fulcrum, and moves in the direction of the force. That is why our body moves in the same direction as the outside/opposite shoulder (force) is moving when swimming. A third class lever would only result in the load moving backwards. Have you read Swimming Fastest? I am curious to hear about your opinion on chapters dealing on the various forces involves in human swimming propulsion?

RE: Set-up your stroke first then pull

Former Member — Sat, 14 Aug 2010 10:29:28 GMT

Let me simplify this a bit so we can get to the meat of the issue: 1) Let us say that you have grabbed an immovable bar with your hands so you have a stationary pivot point 2) Let us say you are swimming butterfly in order to keep things symmetrical 3) Let us say that your elbows can flex as needed so that your body can travel in a straight line forward as you pivot rather than in an arc. It seems to me that you have a load, in this case the drag on your body that is acting backwards, i.e. pulling the lever in the opposite direction from that desired. You have a muscle attached to your arm and to your trunk which again is pulling the arm in the wrong direction. The only force I can see that is exerting a moment in the forward direction is the momentum/inertia of your body. If this is the case then you cannot use the hand as a pivot. You had suggested that in freestyle you can use the opposite shoulder to generate a moment around the pivot point but I don't see how you can push the lever forward. If you use the shoulder joint as your pivot then you have muscles which can generate a moment in the desired direction around the shoulder joint, that creates a force at your hand, which the water returns providing forward propulsion. Have I erred somewhere? Also, when paddling a canoe one of your hands acts as a pivot, either you hold the lower hand stationary and push the top forward (1st class lever), or you hold the top stationary and pull back with the lower hand (3rd class lever), or a combination of the two, moving the pivot point between your hands.

RE: Set-up your stroke first then pull

fritznh — Sat, 14 Aug 2010 08:00:42 GMT

Clyde, I don't think it is as simple as a lever. Your hand does move when you pull back on the water, water is a fluid, not a solid. The force along your arm is what provides propulsion, and the distribution of forces along your arm is changing as a function of arm position. From a bio-mechanical point of view, your arm really is a class three lever, the load is distributed on the arm, the pectoral muscle is pulling on your upper arm and the shoulder is the fulcrum. The force along your arm (and your body, for that matter) is due to the difference in velocity between your arm and the water. Different parts of your arm are moving at different speeds, so the game is to change the shape of the lever to provide the most efficient propulsion. EVF seems to be pretty good for that, as it pushes the water straight back earlier. But it depends on the swimmer...