Masters team coaching pay

RE: Masters team coaching pay

orca1946 — Fri, 16 Jul 2010 01:37:15 GMT

How does a monthly fee work out for teams?

RE: Masters team coaching pay

Former Member — Wed, 07 Jul 2010 16:18:06 GMT

I have never really come across too many masters groups that could pay for themselves. I see plenty of groups that have about 20 regular swimmers, each paying $50-$60/month - so, you are looking at a group bringing in $1000-$1200/month total from memberships. Take away pool and other costs, I don't see much left for coach pay. If a master's coach makes over $500/month I would consider them lucky. well obviously such a small squad won't generate a full time job. Therefore it's better to evaluate if the coach is well reward for his efforts by bringing the salary on an hourly basis. A coach (a pro, meaning one that wants to make a living out of it) that is good at managing his time can find ways to set a full coaching schedule out of a few squads, web coaching, private coaching etc.... Occasionally, a age group swim program can subsidize a master's program...generally if that age group club is pretty large. That I've never seen. There are usually expenses related to AG development (training camps, long distance traveling costs etc...) that need to be subsidize by the master program, rarely the other way around. On top of that, very often, they take young swimmers with little or no coaching experience to coach masters. Or so is the case here up North in our province.

RE: Masters team coaching pay

SLOmmafan — Wed, 07 Jul 2010 11:25:27 GMT

RE: Masters team coaching pay

SLOmmafan — Wed, 07 Jul 2010 04:47:16 GMT

well obviously such a small squad won't generate a full time job. Therefore it's better to evaluate if the coach is well reward for his efforts by bringing the salary on an hourly basis. A coach (a pro, meaning one that wants to make a living out of it) that is good at managing his time can find ways to set a full coaching schedule out of a few squads, web coaching, private coaching etc.... That I've never seen. There are usually expenses related to AG development (training camps, long distance traveling costs etc...) that need to be subsidize by the master program, rarely the other way around. On top of that, very often, they take young swimmers with little or no coaching experience to coach masters. Or so is the case here up North in our province. I come from a pretty small town, and have lived in small towns all my life. My general experience has been that if there is a "master's" group, it is make up of a couple "swim parents" who want something to do because they are already at the pool so much for their kid(s). If they get a few more outside people to join up they count themselves lucky. By age group "subsidizing" a masters team, I almost more mean that without the age group team there is almost no chance that a masters team would ever be formed in this particular area.

RE: Masters team coaching pay

orca1946 — Wed, 07 Jul 2010 01:34:15 GMT

Our coach runs 3 practices a week. She is the only coach, although 2-3 others help when she is gone. all swimmers must pay for the rec centre membership on their own Her pay is what I can collect from the team on a what do you think coaching is worth to you basis. Some give $ 10 - -others give $300 for 7 months of coaching. I guess it depends on how you put worth to what she does for each of us. I have gotten much faster in the 9 years I have been with this team !

RE: Masters team coaching pay

Rykno — Tue, 06 Jul 2010 09:14:07 GMT

our masters group is only 10-15 swimmers with 5-7 participating in meets. as well as 2-3 being 15-16 yr olds with injuries and can't swim with the other groups I coach the group, and do it because otherwise we wouldn't have a coach. instead of being on an hourly pay, I do it for the cost of swimming. so instead of paying $200/half a year I coach 5.5hrs a week för nearly 22 weeks. so in a sense I work for less than 50 cents an hr. don't get me wrong I would love to pay for swimming and have someone else coaching the group, but we don't all live in a swimmers town.

RE: Masters team coaching pay

Former Member — Mon, 05 Jul 2010 14:30:07 GMT

One last thing that's cool with video, especially the way you archive it over time, is that masters can often get bored after so many years always hearing the same cr.p feed back about their strokes. Coaches often complaint about this fact. They say well why bother giving feedback to masters, they don't want to ear 'bout their flaws? True that. They don't want to ear. But they might wanna see! Nowadays with youtube you could create team channel, archive the material there and at Christmas it's real fun cause every one gets to laugh at Oncle Solar's strange non athletic belly. My nieces recently saw me performing the fly, they immediately asked their father to resume swim lessons. It's all good!!!

RE: Masters team coaching pay

Former Member — Mon, 05 Jul 2010 14:10:13 GMT

I coach a Masters Swimming team in Colorado Springs, Colorado. I mainly do it for the fun of coaching and seeing people improve. We are part of a kids team and most of our dues goes to supporting them. That is how we actually get pool time. I get about $350 a month after taxes (of course I have a full-time job doing something else.) I guess what keeps me from doing a better job is lack of time and energy. I have for several years been filming our swimmers, creating a DVD of their strokes (front view and side view) and turns, with comments during the slow motion video on what to improve. I created a rig so that I can film above and below the water simultaneously. I purchased an underwater bullet or helmet cam on eBay and feed into a camcorder for the underwater video. An other camcorder is used to record the above water video. I use a video editing program to show the two views at the same time on the DVD. I always try to work on their strokes during workout. I have a library of about 20 DVD videos I purchased to loan out to our swimmers. I have been doing this for about 25 years. The first few years I did it for free. I also enjoy writing workouts that challenge a swimmer to work harder than they expect. In many towns a full-time Masters Swimming Coach is unrealistic given the number of swimmers available in the town. We have about 45 swimmers on our team. Hopefully my team is happy with what they are getting. So you're in a good position to know how important video is. Even if you didn't show your swimmers the clips, the mere fact that you take the time slow mo underwater, overwater analyzing their stroke makes you a good coach. It makes you someone that can identify strange things, find the cause, and design a strategy to address the issue. This is the only darn way that I know one can make a decent job on the deck. I know I may sound arch. Back in my days, I could understand but nowadays? Frankly I don't. Cams are the size of a credit card, you probably got one on your phone, and it can probably transmits wire less to some cheap monitor or something. I never really like screaming at a swimmers technical stuff anyway. Taking them out of the water for a casual talk around a tv set creates an atmosphere that's perfect for catching swimmer's attention. Sometimes interesting details pop up that would otherwise be left untold in the cold context of deck to pool interaction. And the others? Since they know exactly on which mission to work, I leave them alone. I coach spending a lot of my time sitting on a chair chatting with swimmers, manipulating bodies in front of the mirror dry land etc. The session gets explained in details at the beginning. So they know what direction to give to the session. Swimmers swim smartly when they know in advance what's the main set and how it should be swam. If the intervals are well designed, the sets don't become messy. And if you set carefully picked challenges, team spirit kicks in within the lanes, swimmers have fun, no need to be on their tales screaming or something.

RE: Masters team coaching pay

Former Member — Mon, 05 Jul 2010 13:32:43 GMT

A full time masters swimming coach is pretty much non-existent in the Philly. I think that there is one and he is the only Philly coach you will see at meets. The other Masters programs are just an extension of a Y or age group program or where I usually swim, an extension of a college swimming program. so, the coaches run Masters practices an a extension of their current positions. Let me tell you though. The profession is in a serious transition, a serious turn. I myself now sometimes think about getting back to sports full time, in fact, it's more a matter of when now. I may risk being judged by Paul Smith, but there's no way I'll get back to this profession is my salary isn't at least the same as what I earn now. New thing though now is that you can add more services, more sources of revenue. Web coaching, product sales, private coaching, all that can easily add up to something interesting, especially for a triathlon coach that's a swim coach too. But I shall never ever trust a parents' committee to vote on my salary. I hate parents' committee like you wouldn't believe. There's not enough professionals in the profession. Not enough business men, people that can think revenue more than expense. Too often too much like last year, which was like last year, which was like last year.

RE: Masters team coaching pay

Former Member — Mon, 05 Jul 2010 13:11:55 GMT

and are driven by something far deeper than $$$. Bahhh gimme a break :)

RE: Masters team coaching pay

tjrpatt — Mon, 05 Jul 2010 09:53:51 GMT

RE: Masters team coaching pay

ganache — Mon, 05 Jul 2010 09:40:40 GMT

RE: Masters team coaching pay

tjrpatt — Mon, 05 Jul 2010 08:56:26 GMT

RE: Masters team coaching pay

Former Member — Mon, 05 Jul 2010 08:48:45 GMT

Probably best not to talk specifics about any one club, my intention was really to ask why a club that has a large number of swimmers, isn't under the thumb of an AG club, and has ample financial resources doesn't have coaching that would universally be regarded as excellent? Perhaps many masters swimmers are quite satisfied with just getting a good workout. The impression I get though is that many masters swimmers would like to get more personal attention and advice from their coaches than they currently do. Perhaps it just costs too much to compete with AG clubs for good coaching skills. Perhaps most of the really good coaches want to work with up and coming kids that have a chance at greatness. I've got to rest my hopes on coaches just needing more education and more tools that make it easier to do a better job. It would be interesting to hear from coaches on what holds them back from doing as good a job as they would like.

RE: Masters team coaching pay

magick17 — Mon, 05 Jul 2010 08:34:29 GMT

This is interesting because as I finished my first year of Masters swimming.. I always assumed that the masters group was a fundraiser for the age group team. I even joined our board as the master rep and at the last meeting experienced the coach announcing that the extra extended month that was just offer raised so many extra dollars for the club. I didn't know there was anything different..where the masters was actually taken seriously. I would love california! Hoop dreams

RE: Masters team coaching pay

Former Member — Mon, 05 Jul 2010 07:28:22 GMT

Anyway, I'm getting too much into potential answers, what do YOU see as the answers? I gave up long ago Lindsay. For several entertaining reasons which I'll be glad to share with you when we meet. For now, let us just say that I try not to issue general judgment based on how I would do things if I was the head coach. I am not a reference in other words. Generally speaking, members of ACC are satisfied by the coaching they receive. Or so I believe. And like I said, you already began improving the situation. I told Pablo that there was a clip for this National record he made over 100 fly. He wasn't even aware, now they both are (Him and the coach). That's a start. Maybe they'll checkin on mymsc more often, read a few articles, and thus get aware that there's a parade going on for them. If you want more insight, just ask Mark. I'm sure he could tell you much more about the situation that prevails with the coaching for this team. I remember one day that he and the coach almost came to a fight on some stupid things. And the problem wasn't not on Mark's side. - - - Your video setup question, that I can answer by telling you how I used to handle it. Very simple. I know it's hard to believe but you can trust my words. I used to carry this material with me on every session, except maybe for these sessions where the material wasn't available. So there were no official video recording sessions. If you'd swim with me, and I see something I dislike in your stroke, I would film you while you're not even aware, then take you out of the pool and give my feed back. Takes a little longer, but I found out over the years that it was the most efficient way of getting the message through once and for all. In the end, it means that sometimes, 1 or 2 swimmers would get filmed. Those with whom I would need to communicate. Sometimes none. Sometimes 4, it depends on the set (got to be a nice long simple steady set) and on what I would see that day. I would log in a notebook (paper notebook that is) every little feed back so that I remain consistent. Very simple, not time consuming, but required that I do the extra effort of reserving the material, take it in the basement, roll it on the deck, connect it etc etc...

RE: Masters team coaching pay

Former Member — Mon, 05 Jul 2010 07:16:39 GMT

Ok, let's look at the large program you sometimes swim with that is run for masters by masters. The last that I heard they have a substantial bank account from their long history of successfully hosting large meets. If, for the sake of argument, we accept your assessment that there is a lot of room for improvement, my question is, what can they do to improve the quality of their coaching? And from my own perspective, what can MSC do to help them improve the quality of their coaching? Should they buy a video camera and possibly a video display/monitor? I know of at least a couple clubs that have video equipment that goes unused. What are the factors that determine whether video is used and how effectively? Off hand, I think one issue is the coach is kept busy keeping all the lanes progressing through the set and it is hard to stop and take video and play it back to a swimmer without other people being left waiting. Perhaps the solution there is to have an assistant who really only has to know enough to be able to explain the sets to the swimmers while the most knowledgeable coach spends their time helping individuals? In some sense this approach might apply regardless of whether you are using video. Anyway, I'm getting too much into potential answers, what do YOU see as the answers?

RE: Masters team coaching pay

Former Member — Mon, 05 Jul 2010 06:23:40 GMT

Oh boy! Oh boy! Oh boy!(...) There are 3 categories of persons in life Lindsay: 1. Those who are in the parade 2. Those who are a aware that there's a parade. They work hard to someday be part of it 3. Those who aren't even aware that there's a parade. Deciders, those who are part of the decision process in these swim clubs that are using the Masters program as a fund raiser for their AG program, mostly belong to the 3rd category. And they will probably remain there forever and a day. As you know, I sometimes train with one of the rare structure that's fully dedicated to Masters, and even there, the level of coaching is so so.... to say the least. People couldn't care less about Masters, that's the fact. Best way I guess to help changing this, is to continue to do what you've done so far, and that is initiating projects that are for all, and documenting other projects on our Canadian Masters Website. Now people may be wondering, how can I know if the structure I am in care about Masters? Here's a simple clue: If you're training for a full year without any stroke correction feed back provided with VIDEO SUPPORT, there's a clue right there! Back in the days I was a full time coach, I would bring the darn big and heavy VHS system even for masters, on a steady basis. Did I have to? Course not. Why would I then? Cause those poor Master suffering from injuries well deserve this special treatment. That was back in early Ninties dammit! Nowadays with the small portable cameras and stuff? If they don't even care showing you what you look like when you swim, and keep issuing a bunch of "do this, do that instead of this" with no real follow up no video support? To me, that's a clue!

RE: Masters team coaching pay

Former Member — Mon, 05 Jul 2010 05:44:29 GMT

There are a couple of Canadian clubs that were established and are run by their head coach, Technosport in Ottawa and Aurora in Ontario. I believe that Aurora has age group and special olympics components, it is also a triathlon club, although I don't know if the triathletes train separately from the masters. I don't think Technosport has an age group component but it is also a triathlon club and has a weight loss component. I have no idea what the take home pay is for the coach/founder of either club but they are two of the largest clubs and have high participation in meets. Quebec is different from the rest of the provinces in that almost all the masters clubs are associated with an age group club, I think there are only two or three exceptions. From just talking to people informally it seems like a lot of Masters aren't getting the quality of coaching that they would like. Personally I learned far more from Bill Boomer's clinic in Middlebury than I have from the last couple of years of swimming with my club. I would love to hear ideas on coach development! I think coaching is one of the major draws of masters swimming (relative to independent lap swimming) and I think there is an unmet demand for good coaching.

RE: Masters team coaching pay

Paul Smith — Sun, 04 Jul 2010 10:30:27 GMT

There are as many different answers to this as there are teams out there...I have yet to find two programs where everything is the same and that you could actually compare. What I will say is that the successful coaches don't punch in on a time clock and are probably working FAR more hours than you can possibly imagine and make very little for their efforts relative to the "real world"...successful coaches "work" 24/7/365 and are driven by something far deeper than $$$.

RE: Masters team coaching pay

Former Member — Sat, 03 Jul 2010 15:07:18 GMT

What's their schedule like? Here in Quebec, which accounts for almost 23% of the whole country's population, I can't think of one single Master Squad having a full time job to offer. What's their schedule like? 15hours of deck, 7hours dryland, 15hours of planning/admin work? Something like that? If you could ask I'd be curious to hear. Again here up north, I think the best opportunities are for those who diversify a bit. Private coaching, web coaching, squad coaching. Problem is that planning should account for a large portion of your coaching time. But it's hard to get paid for what it's really worth. Therefore I'd venture to guess (really guessing here): - Less than 5% of all coaches actually try to plan on a yearly basis. These are probably recently certified young roosters. - Less than 20% of all coaches actually try to plan for a month in advance - Less than 50% of all coaches actually try to plan for a full week in advance - The remaining will plan for a day in advance, at best - Others improvise their sessions in the minutes before the workout The ideal approach is to plan for a full year in advance, including several sub programs per specialty (sprinters, mid/distance swimmers, Triathletes, newbies, elite etc......) and including a periodized dryland program. That takes a lot of time, it can make a huge difference, but again, these hours are tough to sale.

RE: Masters team coaching pay

Former Member — Sat, 03 Jul 2010 10:49:05 GMT

We don't discriminate against Canadians eh? I'd find it pretty normal though. Different certification paths. Besides, US still has a huge edge over Canadian in Swimming I find. Just a personal opinion. Since I am Canadian myself, I think I am allowed to be little more critic about our home brewed swim coaches. Anyway, I am not proud of the avg level of swim coaching here up North. That doesn't mean that there aren't highly competent ones. There are. But we have a hard time retaining them...... Coach Durieux (btw, that's a French Last Name. He may be from Quebec, this weird French speaking Province in which I live) is yet another living proof. And I'm not even judging Master coaching. Because there, it's completely discouraging. We have about 200 swimmers in the program. Which compares in number with a Squad I regularly train with. And it compares to a few squads I can think of. Numbers are there. Swimming is very popular here up North. Bloooody freaking frustrating Parents volunteers committees, those who vote on Salaries (among other crucial things) are what I believe to be the bigger part of the problem. And it's not about to change. Vicious circle. Any solution? Anyway, I am absolutely pleased to see that these organizations work well for you in California. If there's one person that could confirm that such structures exist here in Canada, it would be Lindsay. If he's reading, I'd love to hear about his take.

RE: Masters team coaching pay

swimshark — Sat, 03 Jul 2010 06:54:19 GMT

SolarEnergy, In Southern California we have several/many full time Masters coaches. I can think of three right off: Mission Viejo, SCAQ and Rose Bowl. Beaverton, Oregon has a full time masters coach as well.

RE: Masters team coaching pay

Former Member — Sat, 03 Jul 2010 05:20:02 GMT

I don't know what he is paid, but I hope it is in excess of 50K. Based on your description, I'd say that he is committed to more than 40hr of work per week, but it's normal. And that guy is certainly worth near or passed 70k per year. At the very least. Now that yields the question. Is it worth to spend that sort of money on Master Swimmer Training? My opinion (although I am bias): definite yes. Train the parents, most of them have children. Man this story is absolutely delightful. I am glad that such a program exists in the USA. It's probably the case either in Ontario, Alberta or British Colombia (the 3 provinces having an edge here in Canada). We are very lucky to have such a good technical coach, good organizer, motivator and person in charge. Oh yes, and he is Canadian!!:canada: This is odd though. Why would they hire a Canadian coach? He was probably living South of the borders well before accepting this contract I guess?

RE: Masters team coaching pay

Glenn — Sat, 03 Jul 2010 04:54:12 GMT

SolarEnergy, We don't discriminate against Canadians eh? I don't think he was looked upon as a Canadian coach, but rather a Masters coach. We have about 200 swimmers in the program. We have two 50 meter pools and they are used 15 hours a day, 7 days a week. We have age group, family swim, water polo, diving, water aerobics, a therapy pool (small pool at about 90 degrees F), we have triathletes, and fitness swimmers, Olympians, Hall of Fame members etc. To answer your question as to wether the coaches salary is worth it, I would say absolutely! He has more than doubled the number of people in the program in four years. That would pay for his salary right there. www.rosebowlaquatics.org